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Thread: Flat universe and the big bang theory

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    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Flat universe and the big bang theory

    On another forum I had a healthy debate with a serial science poster about the big bang and the intial expansion required at 4 times the speed of light etc..
    We had debated black/dark matter and energy and the best explanation the science zealot could give is we observe its effects...not actuallly true or proven we do observe effects which cannot be explained without the addition of magic super glue to hold things in place for the current theory and it has become known as dark matter and dark energy...big difference. His rationale was we observed stars long before we could prove what they were...was he referring to those holes in the blanket where light shone? Timing is crucial and truth is realitive to the time it is stated was my only point.
    Recently I have been reading the statistical analysis on the probability of the universe being the current flat shape ...it is 10 to the power of 100 more likely to happen without inflation ( another key concept that is observed in our universe) than with it.
    Then their is good inflation v bad inflation.....bad inflation where it is more 10 to the power of 15 times more condusive to produce environments that would sustain life.
    Good inflation9 the one the current theory uses) is a remote and statistical rareity and is needed to produce a flat shape that we currently live within.

    So all this does not make the theory wrong, but it does make it such a fluke that IT BEGGARS BELIEF.

    Now combine this with outline of how the big bang began (or at least or current theory)( ps. this next post was deleted by the science mod from another forum as it "read like a comic").

    no one "understands" super force... it is an imaginary combination of the four known forces before the universe supposedly expanded at speeds four times the speed of light for a while..another very strange occurance for a scientist to state..However i digress...

    super force was invented because science needed a super force source to break free of the black /white hole in the big bang theory...not because of anything else...let us see... there were only four special brothers...strong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravity and magneto....none of these good forces alone had the power to break free of the evil black hole, which by the way (according to current science and the BB theory) didnt exist... but when they combined they formed..tah dah...super force!
    This super Force then overcame its single FRW captor and escaped at a speed 4 times faster than light until they decided to slow down a bit,( for no apparent reason)...then the first ever planets whom stragggled too much were gobbled up by the evil black holes and eaten from inside... or worse were they attacked by the equally evil super huge white holes by using the temporal parts of the spacetime metric after tharwting the swartzchild dilemna by continually expanding!( although the universe has been measured as currently slowing down)

    Luckily for our intrepid stars the "hawking radiation solution" is expected to eventually render the evil black holes inconsequential by depleting their mass. Our intrepid stars may still avoid the isotropic collapse that spacetime had planned for it. Will the evil oppenheimer plan a stellar collapse to end all our heroic forces hopes as the evil black hole swallow everyhing in their path and pass it to the white hole sigularities for use?... will our star survive the evil whiteholes "string of beads" plan where the evil white hole gang explode separately but in a unexplainable co-ordinated fashion to acheive the GR Exact solution and realising the 'ONE' universe we supposedly seek?..stay tuned for more, although it may take thousands of billons of years before we first see the edge of the evil whiteholes cunning identity...
    Will they again control our four heroic forces fates or will our heros again form to become TAH DAH ....SUPER FORCE!

    I actually believe BB is our best guess yet, but let's be realistic it is a best fit...as such it's a theory full of holes ( pun intended)
    Last edited by consolidation; 03-31-2011 at 08:43 PM. Reason: better spelling , sorry!

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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    I grew up watching Carl Sagan on PBS. I toook Astro Science in high school. I wish he was here today to participate in these debates. He fostered a love of science for which I will ever be grateful. I did go on to major in music and your post brought the incredible music from that series to mind.





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    Last edited by Soapboxmom; 03-31-2011 at 08:55 PM.

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    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    great music and vision, thank you! I must watch that series one day.

    Now comes the really challenging part ( which I do with a sense of fun and puckness) Those science minded individuals out there I would encourage you to use the laws of permutations to calculate the accumlative statistical likelhood of the big bang being correct noting the few of the many probabilities in the first posting that it needs to be held true. heres a link if you need it.
    Probability theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now having done that (please be civil and scientific ) I ask why is "God just did it" any less remote an idea ?
    Ladies and gentlemen start your engines.

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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Perhaps God is the uncaused cause and he just did do it?

    Soapboxmom

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    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Wikipedia says: "The age of the Earth is 4.54 BILLION years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%) This age is based on evidence from radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples"

    Why is humankind so arrogant as to expect it has a bloody clue what happened or could have happened 4.54 BILLION years ago.

    Is there anything wrong with humankind saying "We have no possible way of knowing what happened" and turning its' attention to something that matters ???

    I guess that's why non ego driven people refer to it as the Big Bang THEORY.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    I agree LRM. It's funny to watch. There was a documentary ('The Universe' I think which is a pretty good series) on either History or Discovery channels (or both) that stated scientists have narrowed down the big bang theory to like one atom that contained 4 elements and it exploded to create the universe. But they never addressed how this one single solitary atom would have gotten there.

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    Entertained is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    consolidated,

    You are no doubt referring to the article in Scientific American this month by Paul Steinhardt. He makes a very eloquent case for the defects in Inflation Theory, and in addition points out some of its strengths. Further elaborations on the article can be found at the SciAm web site. Steinhardt’s arguments are not universally accepted, and are in fact a minority view. That does not make them wrong however. Some of the rebuttals to his arguments include that at the moment there is no better theory available that is supported by the preponderance of data (and Steinhardt is trying to develop his own theory, so may not be the most unbiased author). Admittedly, we do not have all of the data necessary to validate inflation theory. COBE and subsequent probes have generated a lot of data in support of inflation, and the mainstream view is still that inflation is the best we’ve got for now. Second, the data show that the observable universe is astoundingly flat as well as astoundingly uniform. It is incredibly unlikely that such a state could arise from the rapid initial conditions of the Big Bang (which is thought of as an explosion, but wasn’t anything of the sort). Inflation is one way of explaining not just the uniformity and flatness, but also a lot of other observational data. Steinhardt points out (correctly IMO) that the current version of inflation theory (not Guth’s original version, but the so-called “new” theory) relies on things that are improbable and has some gaps. His arguments on various individual points appear to have merit, but the individual points do not lead to a new theory (yet??). The situation as I see it is that our present state is incredibly unlikely regardless of how it is modeled. For a model to be able to generate the near-zero values for lack of flatness or nonuniformity, it must be very sensitive to perturbation (which is part of Steinhardt’s argument). The analogy is that it is difficult to accurately distinguish small differences between large quantities – how good of a scale would you need to have in order to differentiate between one billion grams and one billion and one grams? The third rebuttal for Steinhardt’s argument in the anthropic principle. We exist, and if rare events must occur in order for us to exist, then those rare events must have happened in our universe. In many cosmological models, there are an infinity of universes, and thus even rare events occur. While this is not all that satisfying, it is a mathematically consistent argument. 10 to the 100th power is a LOT less than infinity…….

    In all emergent science, data collection and theory proposal, testing, and refinement occur simultaneously. You are correct in saying that inflation and the Big Bang are the best theories we have at the moment. It is also correct to say that there are significant anomalies, pointed out by Steinhardt and many others.

    I'll leave the "God Just Did It" part alone.......however, if you are interested, Hawking's lastest book addresses that specific issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by consolidation View Post
    great music and vision, thank you! I must watch that series one day.

    Now comes the really challenging part ( which I do with a sense of fun and puckness) Those science minded individuals out there I would encourage you to use the laws of permutations to calculate the accumlative statistical likelhood of the big bang being correct noting the few of the many probabilities in the first posting that it needs to be held true. heres a link if you need it.
    Probability theory - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Now having done that (please be civil and scientific ) I ask why is "God just did it" any less remote an idea ?
    Ladies and gentlemen start your engines.

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    Entertained is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    LRM,

    With the greatest respect, I think you might be off base. How did you know that ASD was a scam? Well, you relied on observation, data, a theory, and past experience and arrived at a conclusion. Same thing here. The various disciplines that get combined into cosmology are data and theory-driven, like any scientific endeavor. As better data becomes available, theories are adjusted or discarded accordingly. The LHC at CERN is specifically designed to probe high-energy regions in order to answer some very fundamental questions concerning cosmology primarily (note that I did not say "important questions.") Taken another way, how do you KNOW what happened to you yesterday? Regardless of how you might answer that one, I could always hypothesize that earlier today the Flying Spaghetti Monster created you and everything around you, including your memories of yesterday. That means that there was no "yesterday". This theory explains everything about your existence today, and on the face of it, is a perfectly valid theory and you have no basis for rejecting it. However, this theory is not testable, and thus does not fall into the realm of science. However, the BB theory, as well as theories regarding the origin of the solar system, do fall within the class of theories that ARE testable.

    As to the comment on "turning attention to things that matter", I would suggest that a great many people said the same thing about quantum mechanics 100 years ago. Of course, today something like $10 trillion of our global economy relies on mankind's ability to understand and harness the principles of quantum mechanics. There'd be no electronics, for starters. I am not sayiing in any way that cosmology has any practical implications, but rejection of basic science doesn't seem like a good idea. IMVHO, the best reasons to intellectually explore the universe are to challenge/expand/stretch our brains, and more importantly to seek to understand where we and everything around us came from. That is the deep question that cosmology seeks to answer. I know a great many people invoke consolidation's "God Just Did It" theory, but certainly that is not the answer for everyone. There's even the variation of "God Did It And Left Clues For Us To Explore" theory......


    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    Wikipedia says: "The age of the Earth is 4.54 BILLION years (4.54 × 109 years ± 1%) This age is based on evidence from radiometric age dating of meteorite material and is consistent with the ages of the oldest-known terrestrial and lunar samples"

    Why is humankind so arrogant as to expect it has a bloody clue what happened or could have happened 4.54 BILLION years ago.

    Is there anything wrong with humankind saying "We have no possible way of knowing what happened" and turning its' attention to something that matters ???

    I guess that's why non ego driven people refer to it as the Big Bang THEORY.

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    Entertained is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Whip,

    There are several theories out there as to how the Big Bang started, or even "what came before the Big Bang", if you are interested. As you might guess, the available data is not voluminous, but what there is can be explained in several ways that are mathematically consistent. Of course, "can be explained" is different than "we know" or "we can prove". This is one of the most active areas of research for cosmology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Whip View Post
    I agree LRM. It's funny to watch. There was a documentary ('The Universe' I think which is a pretty good series) on either History or Discovery channels (or both) that stated scientists have narrowed down the big bang theory to like one atom that contained 4 elements and it exploded to create the universe. But they never addressed how this one single solitary atom would have gotten there.

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    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Thanks for the input every one!

    it is always interesting to hear views and perhaps gleen some new info on the subject.
    The "god did it" proposal usually elicits some very interesting replies no matter what the subject in science is.

    I honestly believe that science v faith is a false dichotomy. Both can co-exist in my opinion, however I realise it is just one mans opinon.

    This particular theory is of great interest to me and I am alway happy to learn from those with more rounded backgrounds on the issue.

    Dear Entertained, great name! I have to admit to having read a lot of Hawking's works/papers/books/essays as he has a brilliant mind ,but I also find he has a preset agenda and works backwards towards substantiating that agenda, not forward toward truth, correct me if I am mistaken. He does it brilliantly and eloquently it must be said, but the bias really annoys me as it is so obvious that anyone familiar with his work can guess the outcome and be able to summarise the work before you have even read it.

    His errors such as the black hole theory never seem to get the same fanfare as his constant statements about God,I sometimes wonder if Preskill ever collected on his bet and why he wasnt lauded, noting he told the world the theory was flawed 30 odd years ago? His statements about God being redundant are not exactly new and were around centuries before he existed and I am not sure why he finds it necessary to fan that particular fire quite so often. I suppose it brings him publicity for new works? Although I would read them even if he didn't find the need to make the rash God statements.
    Last edited by consolidation; 04-02-2011 at 09:45 AM. Reason: esl and spelling again, apologies!

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    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Entertained,

    "but rejection of basic science doesn't seem like a good idea" ????

    Are you kidding me ???

    I am in no way rejecting anything.

    It's 4.5 billion years THAT WE KNOW OF.

    There are few artifacts that we know of, or which exist in a form which we can recognize as being within our current reality.

    Humankind says the first signs of life thus far found show us single cell bacteria existed 3.5 billion years ago.

    How do we know that there wasn't at least one whole civilization cycle which existed during the billion years before the bacteria ??

    Why would it be "like" anything which exists during humankinds' blip on earths' timeline.

    Within our current level of understanding, things could not have simply disappeared and left no trace Within our current level of understanding

    We have no idea what could transpire within four and a half billion years.

    There's nothing to observe, no data to analyse.Only a modern day interpretation of what few artifacts we have managed to locate.

    Humankind can't even agree on the "missing link" theory, and that SUPPOSEDLY happened a mere few million years ago, WE THINK.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Man's quest for answers. This brings back fond memories of a college Captsone class I took that focused on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Myth. I wish PBS would rebroadcast that series.

    Soapboxmom

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    Entertained is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    LRM,

    Thanks for the clarification -- my inference of your original post was off-base based on your clarifications. I tend to agree with perhaps a broader restatement of your conjecture -- namely we don't know more than we know(unless I've misinterpreted you again). Of course we don't know with 100% certainty that there was not another cycle of civilization shortly after the formation of the planet (nor for that matter with 100% certainty that Bowdoin doesn't have a fully audited, sufficient external revenue stream that could make ASD legal). However, the data available at the moment suggests otherwise, and while that data only represents a fraction of what could be available over 4.5 billion years, it is voluminous nonetheless. For example, while it's true that mankind's tour on this planet is a blip in geological time, the building blocks of life as we know it at the most fundamental chemical level have been around for a long time (DNA has been positively identified in dinosaur fossils in Montana, for example).

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    Entertained,

    "but rejection of basic science doesn't seem like a good idea" ????

    Are you kidding me ???

    I am in no way rejecting anything.

    It's 4.5 billion years THAT WE KNOW OF.

    There are few artifacts that we know of, or which exist in a form which we can recognize as being within our current reality.

    Humankind says the first signs of life thus far found show us single cell bacteria existed 3.5 billion years ago.

    How do we know that there wasn't at least one whole civilization cycle which existed during the billion years before the bacteria ??

    Why would it be "like" anything which exists during humankinds' blip on earths' timeline.

    Within our current level of understanding, things could not have simply disappeared and left no trace Within our current level of understanding

    We have no idea what could transpire within four and a half billion years.

    There's nothing to observe, no data to analyse.Only a modern day interpretation of what few artifacts we have managed to locate.

    Humankind can't even agree on the "missing link" theory, and that SUPPOSEDLY happened a mere few million years ago, WE THINK.

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    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    I just find it amusing that "humankind" assumes that what exists in our past and in the rest of the universe/s resembles, in any way, the here and now.

    For example, I think about 3.5 billion year old fossilized bacteria or the DNA sample found in Montana, and I ask myself what are the mathematical odds of:

    a) Finding ANY 3.5 billion year old bacteria
    b) Finding ALL 3.5 billion year old bacteria
    c) Finding ANYTHING, given the size of the planet and the size of the thus far unexplored areas.

    In my tortured mind, it's not inconceivable that 4 billion years ago, there existed a civilization 200 feet under my house. I know with certainty no one in modern times has looked there, so why not ???
    Even if they had, what would be the odds they'd be looking for 3.5 billion year old anything, or recognize it if they saw it ????
    The sand plain on which I live was only formed around 115,000 years ago, again I wonder what the odds are.
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    I just find it amusing that "humankind" assumes that what exists in our past and in the rest of the universe/s resembles, in any way, the here and now.

    For example, I think about 3.5 billion year old fossilized bacteria or the DNA sample found in Montana, and I ask myself what are the mathematical odds of:

    a) Finding ANY 3.5 billion year old bacteria
    b) Finding ALL 3.5 billion year old bacteria
    c) Finding ANYTHING, given the size of the planet and the size of the thus far unexplored areas.

    In my tortured mind, it's not inconceivable that 4 billion years ago, there existed a civilization 200 feet under my house. I know with certainty no one in modern times has looked there, so why not ???
    Even if they had, what would be the odds they'd be looking for 3.5 billion year old anything, or recognize it if they saw it ????
    The sand plain on which I live was only formed around 115,000 years ago, again I wonder what the odds are.
    LOL, I enjoy seeing and reading various guesses about all manor of things celestial, biological, historical, and/or spiritual, but every time I see the latest and greatest theory about how or what happened, I think about the favorite saying of a supervisor I had years ago," I named my son 'theory' 'cause he didn't work either"...!!!

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    Beacon is offline Antiauthoritarian skeptic
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Quote Originally Posted by consolidation View Post

    I honestly believe that science v faith is a false dichotomy. Both can co-exist in my opinion, however I realise it is just one mans opinon.
    An opinion I happen to agree with. so it now isnt one mans opinion.
    I have to admit to having read a lot of Hawking's works/papers/books/essays as he has a brilliant mind ,but I also find he has a preset agenda and works backwards towards substantiating that agenda, not forward toward truth, correct me if I am mistaken. He does it brilliantly and eloquently it must be said, but the bias really annoys me as it is so obvious that anyone familiar with his work can guess the outcome and be able to summarise the work before you have even read it.
    Because Fermat had a last theorem doesn't mean proving it was not an achievement does it?
    I once met Hawking but I couldnt be bothered queing behind him to read what he was typing and perferred to stand in front of him drinking wine and musing about parallel universes in which we didnt believe in parallel universe theory and biouyncers always demanded you wore white socks before they allowed you into a nightclub.
    His errors such as the black hole theory never seem to get the same fanfare as his constant statements about God,
    I thought his original thought was not black holes but that certain types e.g. quantum BH could evaporate. They got hairy. I agree by the way with the idea of inflation and constant changing of the Hubble constant creating a very "leaky" theory but it is still the best thing Science has ever come up with in terms of a complete theory of everything. I mean other aspects of science are not anywhere near so fundamentally reducible to first principles.

    Another element of this discussion was about "arrogance" of trying to find a solution. I would reject that claim. While I respect empirical science, I dont think speculation into things we can not directly measure is not science. Most science isnt so pure as such purists claim it is.

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    Mongo is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Hi Everyone. There are only two possibilities to the universe being here. Either it was designed/created or it is due to random chance/luck. Now before anyone says I'm pushing ID, I'm not. I have no clue what the coorect answer actually is. I'm only saying these are the two logical choices.

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    NikSam is offline AntiCon Artist
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    If you study a development of any chaos or randomness process, there is always a process and outcome of it, not final by there are results in the progression.

    Now about Intelligent design of things, is it really intelligent if you think deeply into it?

    Intelligent design never explains how that intelligence itself came to existence.
    So goes for big bang, power to produce it , and so on.

    Some people just cannot take the unknown as a base of the beginning and make fairy tales out of it or trying to explain scientifically something they have no data on.
    even though i support scientific approach vs faith and fairy tales.

    And no, science and faith cannot co-exist in the same concept, they cancel each other in their teachings.

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    Mongo is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Have you heard of The Goldilocks Theory? Basically the universe is based on forces, and properties being precisely the amount needed for the universe to exist. If the force of gravity was a tiny fraction higher then we would have had a big crunch already. If a tiny fraction smaller matter wouldn't have clumped together. Same goes for dozens of other contants and properties. Now the question is why are they the value that they are.

    Logic dictates they are that way because they were made that way, or because chance/luck happened upon the values. There are now other logical possibilities for it. Unknown is not a logical possibility. I flip a coin. It is unknown to you if it is heads or tails, but it is still either heads or tails. The answer is unknown, not the possibilities.

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    NikSam is offline AntiCon Artist
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Laws of physics came from observation of processes around us, assuming that life and things only possible in this configuration is not right.
    Some deep space of universe might have different criteria to support it's own environment.
    Assuming that existence and life is only possible in like our own environment cannot apply universally, you just using knowledge of things as they seem to apply to our little place in that universe.

    Big crunch as you say is also a process which will have own results.

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    Mongo is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Quote Originally Posted by NikSam View Post
    Assuming that existence and life is only possible in like our own environment cannot apply universally, you just using knowledge of things as they seem to apply to our little place in that universe.
    I'm not talking about life. I'm ttalking about the existence of the universe itself. If the universe doesn't exist then no life of any sort can exist. If no matter of anykind can exist then there is no life. If matter and anti-matter were equal at the start then there would be no universe. Your focus is way too narrow. Do not think of humans or life as we know it. Think in terms of basic fundamental laws. Again the choice is clear. Either these laws and constants were designed or they happened through chance.

    The multiverse is one explanation that tries to answer this. All possible laws happen in an infinite number of universes.

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    NikSam is offline AntiCon Artist
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    when what first has to be?
    an universe where the some laws might apply or laws for that universe existence ?
    or shell-verse where multiverses might exist by some laws ?
    or emptiness which we cannot define but perhaps some laws of existence of it and in it exist?

    or in narrow mind, what was the first - the chicken or the egg ?
    For a little tick a cow is a planet and a farm is the universe, so goes for us with our theories of things we cannot see or apprehend.

    It is pointless coming up with scientific theories of the unknown to tie our knowledge to those theories, they just become fairy tales themselves.

    There is no end how deep this rabbit hole goes.

    Agree that is Unknown and that nobody will ever have the answer and find a peace of mind.
    Any possible answer will just bring the infinitive set of new unanswerable questions.

    Big Bang does not necessary means the bang, some powers, the beginning, etc.. but a point of time most agreed to study the universe from.

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    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Mongo View Post
    Think in terms of basic fundamental laws.
    That is the whole point, isn't it ??

    WHOSE laws ?

    Humankinds ?

    Humankind is constrained by the fact it IS humankind, with all of humankinds' frailties and arrogance.

    To quote Napoleon Hill: "What the mind of man can conceive and believe, it can achieve"

    What about what the mind of man CANNOT conceive and believe ??

    or

    "What the mind of man cannot YET conceive and believe"

    What would make anyone think "we" (as in humankind) could even begin to "imagine" what is "out there" or what "has happened" much less "KNOW" or even "GUESS" ?
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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    Mongo is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    Quote Originally Posted by NikSam View Post
    Agree that is Unknown and that nobody will ever have the answer and find a peace of mind.
    Any possible answer will just bring the infinitive set of new unanswerable questions.
    Once again you make the mistake of mixing up knowing an answer vs. knowing the possibilities. They are not the same thing. This is a very basic question on logic. I claim there are two possible logical explanations for the start of THIS universe (no multiverse). It happened because it was designed or created to happen or it happened because of chance luck. I am NOT trying to answer this question and you are correct to say that as of this point in time it is unanswerable. But we can, through logic state the parameters of the possible reasons. Science does this all the time. In fact my questions is a very basic one that physicists have stated numerous times.

    What other possibility is there? This is like saying a women is either pregnant or not pregnant. It is unknown which state she is in but those are the two possibilities.

    After the start of the universe we can get into things like the Anthropic Principle. Paul Davies's book The Goldilocks Enigma (2006) reviews the current state of the fine tuning debate in detail, and concludes by enumerating the following responses to that debate:

    1) The absurd universe: Our universe just happens to be the way it is.
    2) The unique universe: There is a deep underlying unity in physics which necessitates the Universe being the way it is. Some Theory of Everything will explain why the various features of the Universe must have exactly the values that we see.
    3) The multiverse: Multiple universes exist, having all possible combinations of characteristics, and we inevitably find ourselves within a universe that allows us to exist.
    4) Intelligent Design: A creator designed the Universe with the purpose of supporting complexity and the emergence of intelligence.
    5) The life principle: There is an underlying principle that constrains the Universe to evolve towards life and mind.
    6) The self-explaining universe: A closed explanatory or causal loop: "perhaps only universes with a capacity for consciousness can exist." This is Wheeler's Participatory Anthropic Principle (PAP).
    7) The fake universe :We live inside a virtual reality simulation.

    Omitted from his book is Lee Smolin's model of cosmological natural selection, also known as "fecund universes," which proposes that universes have "offspring" which are more plentiful if they resemble our universe. But first we have to find out all the possibilities of what started the universe. I say there are only two possibilities. If you think there are more then please state them.

    @Littleroundman, this is know knowing what other loaws there are. It is a very basic logical question. Our universe exists because of why. We have no clue but logic confines the question. It is either because it was created to be this way or it just happened to be this way. You r reply is simple evasion of the question. You don't like the choices and know that there are no other choices so you use a fallacy in argument to avoid the question.
    Last edited by Mongo; 06-08-2013 at 07:15 AM. Reason: Other Post

  25. #25
    NikSam is offline AntiCon Artist
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    Dec 2012
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    2,259

    Re: Flat universe and the big bang theory

    than you narrowing yourself to what is considered the universe.
    A creator concept logically implies the existence of that creator in outside of the universe, therefore only brings more questions.
    Any possibilities and theories will still stay as such and should be not taken more seriously as any fairy tale even if it makes sense for some of it's connections to our logic.
    Still none of them can explain the True beginning of things, but logically based on something which existed beforehand.

    the Unknown will still remain Unknown no matter how hard science will try to explain it.


    In any case do you try to solve something nobody ever can on RealScam ?

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