Thread: People Using "Religion" to Scam Others

Originally Posted by scratchycat

Do I feel sorry for people like this, do I cry for them or do I feel sorry for those who follow them and sign up for all the programs they jump on?? What do you think?

With the exception of people who are not able to make sound decisions due to some infirmity hell no. I hate to say this, but certain people are destined to lose their money somewhere and none of us can afford to waste much time with them. It is one thing where someone is "tricked" in to giving money up, job scams, grandparent scams, charity scams, and people can be educated if they invest the time.

On the Pozni, MLM pyramid, or gifting side of things we can make a case for the people who have never heard of it before. But a lot of people seem to think that there is some secret out there where you invest and apple and return an orchard. Or that some stranger is going to approach them with a bag of money they are just dying to share. They are plain greedy, and want something for nothing.

And taking is one step further, when I read stories of Charles Ponzi there were folks that blamed the government when he was sent to prison for "ruining a good thing". Most of us have to suspend disbelief when we read reactions like this. But, fast forward a 100 years, and you can see the very same response, and even more so thanks to the interwebs.

All that said, the cause is very worthy. There are plenty of folks who visit the forum, read about something they were approached with, and get the information they need to make an informed decision. I suspect most of them keep their money safe and sound.

Originally Posted by ribshaw

With the exception of people who are not able to make sound decisions due to some infirmity hell no. I hate to say this, but certain people are destined to lose their money somewhere and none of us can afford to waste much time with them. It is one thing where someone is "tricked" in to giving money up, job scams, grandparent scams, charity scams, and people can be educated if they invest the time.

Blame the victim? No one deserves to be scammed! You set up a false dichotomy--a logical fallacy--with your assertion that people are either infirm or predestined to be defrauded. Have you researched why people succumb to the logical fallacies scammers use to take in their victims. If you do, you'll discover that the human mind is predisposed to intuitively accept a broad spectrum of logical fallacies; and that predisposition has nothing to do with native intelligence or character. Critical thinking is the only means by which logical fallacies can be debunked; and unfortunately it isn't intuitively engaged by most people.

I'd venture a guess that you had no idea that you were presenting a fallacious dichotomy when you made the statement referenced above--testament to your own predisposition to accept at least that logical fallacy.

IMO, compassion for victims is far more powerful than passing judgment on them in the fight against fraud.

Originally Posted by Dave Ritchie

Blame the victim? No one deserves to be scammed! You set up a false dichotomy--a logical fallacy--with your assertion that people are either infirm or predestined to be defrauded. Have you researched why people succumb to the logical fallacies scammers use to take in their victims. If you do, you'll discover that the human mind is predisposed to intuitively accept a broad spectrum of logical fallacies; and that predisposition has nothing to do with native intelligence or character. Critical thinking is the only means by which logical fallacies can be debunked; and unfortunately it isn't intuitively engaged by most people.

I'd venture a guess that you had no idea that you were presenting a fallacious dichotomy when you made the statement referenced above--testament to your own predisposition to accept at least that logical fallacy.

IMO, compassion for victims is far more powerful than passing judgment on them in the fight against fraud.

There is no false dichotomy, in fact, there is no dichotomy at all. Unless you are changing the definition to include, A, B, or C, in which case I cry shenanigans.

If you take my statement to the question I was responding to from Scratchy "Should she feel sorry for the victims". I did not claim that people were either infirm or predestined to be defrauded. I said CERTAIN people are destined to lose their money somewhere, and the implication is THOSE people ARE able to make a "SOUND" decision.

Perhaps you are guilty of inappropriate extrapolation.

Assuming someone is of sound mind, they come here and are presented a case if you will. A group of people with years of experience in business, scams, computers, life, whatever cobble together "evidence" that is largely empirical as none of us have access to a fraudulent companies books. Like this: http://www.realscam.com/f8/forex-mmcis-com-scam-2925/ Then people are left with a choice.

In the thread above, I spent let's call it an hour researching and writing to imsmarter (Nik and LRM also contributed , along with this previous thread http://www.realscam.com/f8/mmcis-inv...ents-com-2183/) so let's call it an hour on each of their ends as well. While the discussion points were largely to imsmarter in the first thread and calejbor in the later, there are a total of 2300 page views. So three of us spent several hours writing for let's call it 2000 strangers, why? Because we don't care? All those people are left with a choice based on available information.

In the case of imsmarter, not only here, but in other threads he was told MMCIS is a sham, and it appears he made a sound decision. There are others who come, look at all that is presented and think, BULLSHIT, I know I can make 100% per year. If fact, some will even become indignant or threatening because a bunch of "naysayers" are trying to keep them down. Those people are destined to lose, and when they do, they will blame everyone but themselves (see my 3rd paragraph). Some will eventually learn as we all do from mistakes, others will never learn. I am not going to waste my time writing for that last group of people. If fact, I would say they serve as a valuable warning to others.

This just for fun... Years ago some jerk was tailgating us on a desolate road swerving back and forth, just wanted to speed. So I pulled over and let him pass. Few miles up the road he had cooked his engine, steam pouring out, speeding no more. I laughed my ass off as we drove past. A few months back, some guy walking with a gas can, I stopped and gave him a lift to the station. Maybe you would have stopped for them both, in which case kudos.

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This thread would be one more way of looking at it, do I care if this cat loses his money, NO, will I laugh when he does, YES. Solutions to problems for me often require more than one train of thought, hence my inability to paint all who get involved in scams as victims. Thus my lack of empathy, and even dark amusement when some of them get their sticky fingers burned.

http://www.realscam.com/f11/jarrettc...i-player-2332/

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Originally Posted by ribshaw

With the exception of people who are not able to make sound decisions due to some infirmity hell no. I hate to say this, but certain people are destined to lose their money somewhere and none of us can afford to waste much time with them. It is one thing where someone is "tricked" in to giving money up, job scams, grandparent scams, charity scams, and people can be educated if they invest the time.

On the Pozni, MLM pyramid, or gifting side of things we can make a case for the people who have never heard of it before. But a lot of people seem to think that there is some secret out there where you invest and apple and return an orchard. Or that some stranger is going to approach them with a bag of money they are just dying to share. They are plain greedy, and want something for nothing.

And taking is one step further, when I read stories of Charles Ponzi there were folks that blamed the government when he was sent to prison for "ruining a good thing". Most of us have to suspend disbelief when we read reactions like this. But, fast forward a 100 years, and you can see the very same response, and even more so thanks to the interwebs.

All that said, the cause is very worthy. There are plenty of folks who visit the forum, read about something they were approached with, and get the information they need to make an informed decision. I suspect most of them keep their money safe and sound.

ribshaw:

schadenfreude |ˈSHädənˌfroidə|, noun, “pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune.” — New Oxford American Dictionary

Your efforts to educate those who come to this website to get reliable information on a scam they're being pressured to join are laudable. The time and energy you spend on those efforts obviously come from your caring. As a consumer, I thank you; and as a counter-mlm consumer advocate, I'm honored to be able to add my voice to yours and others' in combating pernicious scams, frauds, cons, etc.

However, I take issue with schadenfreude directed at folks who pay a price for failing to heed the many warnings available to them. NO ONE deserves to be defrauded, whether they're victimized as a result of an infirmity or because of their unwillingness to accept the counsel of people like you and me who, without compensation, bend our efforts in their interests—an unwillingness we may perceive as foolishness or willful ignorance.

In addition to those two victim categories (your dichotomy), there exists a third, which makes your dichotomy false by definition. It is comprised of the majority in our culture who, through no fault of their own, are devoid of the ability to think critically. We live in an environment in which families, schools and other social institutions actively discourage critical thinking in their constituents, from infancy on. Critical thinking skills encourage children and students to be noncompliant; and that prospect inspires fear in too many parents and educators. In the short run, absent critical thinking results in well-behaved children who are unlikely to make choices we don't want them to make. However, it's absence also creates in the long run, adults who donate large sums to their churches without pausing to consider where it’s actually going and whether or not they can afford it, citizens who'll succumb to the logical fallacies upon which political interests too often rely to gain support for their agendas, and consumers who'll bite on the many deceptive ploys commercial interests use to get into their wallets. However, absent critical thinking ability doesn't make anyone deserving of victimization, any more than do infirmity or willful ignorance.

Unfortunately, the prevailing practice among those of us who try to prevent victimization through our participation in discussion forums is to present our ideas and "facts" without adequate support, i.e. citations of or referrals to truly authoritative resources, rendering those ideas and "facts" nothing more than opinions. We tend instead to cite or refer to other blogs and forums which only feature more opinions. I'm doing exactly that with this post, relying on nothing more than anecdotal observation to support my point. I would expect any critical-thinking reader to reject what I'm writing here as proof that blogs and discussion forums ought to be more intellectually rigorous. But, I digress.

May I suggest that the consumers we're trying to educate--whether or not they accept our advice--are deserving of compassion, not judgment. For whatever it's worth, I prefer to reserve judgment and schadenfreude for the rare scammer who actually goes down in flames. In fact, I’m nasty enough that I'd happily host a schadenfreude party every time it happens.

Dave welcome to the thread,

Good work here. A Simple Strategy to Distinguish Between MLM Business Opportunities and Bankruptcy Opportunities - Blogs - RealScam.com - Is it, or isn't it? You Decide.

Originally Posted by Dave Ritchie

ribshaw:

schadenfreude |ˈSHädənˌfroidə|, noun, “pleasure derived by someone from another person's misfortune.” — New Oxford American Dictionary

Huh, I thought that was the goopy stuff that goes on hot dogs.

A bully getting knocked out does not generally elicit the same emotion as when it happens to someone who was minding their own business. While both reactions are likely visceral, I suspect varying degrees of schadenfreude are more common than most admit in polite company.

Originally Posted by Dave Ritchie

However, I take issue with schadenfreude directed at folks who pay a price for failing to heed the many warnings available to them. NO ONE deserves to be defrauded, whether they're victimized as a result of an infirmity or because of their unwillingness to accept the counsel of people like you and me who, without compensation, bend our efforts in their interests—an unwillingness we may perceive as foolishness or willful ignorance.

There are people right now in churches (and the internet) being presented "opportunities" for them to invest in. I will make perhaps a caustic statement "If they invest, they deserve to lose". Reasonable people can argue what exactly I mean by "deserve", but that is exactly how I handle our family finances. There are plenty of areas I can "afford" to be ripped off, and make plenty of stupid choices each year. That said, no one gets their paws near family money. I would rather accept a smaller return and know exactly where our dosh is.

It is a simple chestnut that would save BILLION$ each year. For people who are trying to make a yes/no decision on doublecashcylcyer4X.scam , especially as you say for people who lack the ability to think critically. If they know I may giggle a little when things go sideways, all the more reason for them to tread carefully.

Very much enjoy looking at "opportunities" and putting pen to paper as it where on why they might or might not work out. People do deserve to be able to read well researched, well though out positions. No one wants to come to a blog where everything is just called a SCAM-- THREAD CLOSED. BUT there have to be hundreds of independent threads here and on other scam sites without a single "opportunity" that has panned out. Sans perhaps for the pimps. There are hundreds if not thousands of years of history of "too good to be true" NEVER working out. Even in the legitimate business world, 95% ish fail within several years. At some level all of us need to go into each "business" decision with eyes wide open, and none of us can afford to rely on bloggers to do it for us.

The proper approach in my opinion (not my original thought) is for someone looking an opportunity is to evaluate all the possible negative outcomes and ask themselves if the worst comes to pass, "can they live with the outcome"? If they are not prepared or able to do this, they are not ready to invest. The guy in the next pew claims to be brokering close outs, or doing hard money loans and wants them to invest. What is the worst that can happen, they can lose 100% of the money they put in.

If they decide to get in on it, and they put in more than they can afford to lose.....

Thank you sir! It's a pleasure to be in league with thoughtful commenters such as you, who can gracefully rise to a challenge from an ally. I appreciate your clarification.