Thread: Ponzi scheme shakes Africa's Benin

Originally Posted by A Life Aloft

All of these pics are from 2010. Now tell us again about the greedy people livong in Benin, you low life cretin.

So silly you are... I've seen the pictures...I know the poverty. I say again...the vast majority of these people were not NOT victims of this scam. I am waiting for someone to prove me wrong with my contention. It is just a guess on my part. I'm guessing when we see the demographics of these victims, the majority won't be the rural folks or those living below the poverty line, the majority will be those living well above the 'average' income, and not living in your pictures. When I say greed feeds a ponzi scheme, I'm still waiting for your response how it doesn't. Less than one and a half percent of the population participated...I am saying a large percentage of them were greedy....not the other 98.5% that didn't participate!

Hyperbole anyone?

A hint for ya, just so you know, of course they sleep on the dirt floor in the rural areas. They have no AC, no electricity, no doors, no windows, they take every bit of furniture out every day and sweep the dirt floor to sweep out the mites and the bugs, you can't do that with furniture, with a bed in there you would end up with an infestation providing the bugs with homes. You also don't sweep out the geckos, the lizards or the spiders...they are your friends, you sleep with them, they eat the bugs.

There is no real upper class in Benin, you ignorant, backpeddling asshole. Not much of a middle class either. THEY ARE ALL POOR by the standards considered by the WHO and the United Nations and other organizations!!! What the hell is it, that you don't get about that, numbnuts? Read the facts on this tiny impoverished country. Educate yourself instead of just running your mouth like you do here and on scam. Oh wait, that would conflict with your ability to lie, deflect, and just make crap up and pretend that you actually know something wouldn't it? It doesn't matter what you "believe", you moron. It matters what the truth is! And the TRUTH is something you have never believed in, your entire life!

You have stated several times on her that the victims of this Ponzi were and are nothing but greedy. You have said nothing negative at all about the instigators of the Ponzi til now when your feet are held to the fire by several posters here and the lightbulb must have finally dawned on your pea brain that you are looking like the heartless, slimy, witless conman that you are. Too late for backpeddling now.

A Ponzi scheme cannot run without the greed of the perpetrators of the Ponzi. Try to get that through your thick imbecilic, uninformed, unlearned skull, you piece of garbage! You make me hurl. You really do!

New York Times:

COTONOU, Benin — It started as a tip between friends, an unheard-of chance to pile up riches in a poor land. How could you go wrong with a good-works company, apparently tight with the government, promising interest of 50 and 100 percent, maybe even higher?

The “investment” was a Ponzi scheme that has ended in disaster for tens of thousands of families on this sliver of the West African coast, wiping out savings, shaking the economy and threatening the president in a nation of nine million that has long been a regional exemplar of stability.

Parliament is demanding his impeachment, high officials have been forced out, and crowds of small savers up and down this Pennsylvania-size land of rich traditions but limited means are demanding restitution.

Benin, birthplace of historic African kingdoms, is on edge. Last week, dozens of fraud victims massed outside the prefecture here in the country’s bustling economic capital. They pressed up against the fence, anxious, angry and insistent that because they had seen pictures of President Thomas Yayi Boni, himself a former banker, alongside officials of the company, called Investment Consultancy and Computering Services, they assumed that it must be legitimate.

Officials estimate that there are between 50,000 and 70,000 victims, with losses of perhaps $180 million — a big sum in a place where most subsist on less than $2 a day and breadwinners have extended families counting on them.

“No family has been left untouched by this,” said Gustave Anani Cassa, a lawyer and former justice minister. More than 4,000 complaints have been brought to his law office alone, he said.

“I’ve lost everything,” said Christian Benhoungbedi, an auto painter waiting outside the prefecture. He said he had invested hundreds of dollars. “I just wanted to help my family.”

Some had waited days outside the yellowing government structure, spending the night under a huge mango tree. Others in the crowd spoke of suicides and deaths from hypertension because of the losses. They brandished official-looking “I.C.C.” contracts with the Statue of Liberty and the stamps and seals that are a staple of West African officialdom. They said they had been enticed by seeing members of the government on television with I.C.C. officials.

Benin’s pride in its domestication of political life — with an absence of military in the streets, a Parliament not in the pocket of the president and a relatively free press — has made the blow even harder. The country has not looked back since a popular uprising effectively overthrew the corrupt military dictatorship 20 years ago, the first such overthrow in post-colonial Africa.

The newspaper kiosks in this chaotic and ramshackle city explode with disputatious publications, and in the mornings yellow-vested drivers of motorcycle-taxis crowd them to read and argue politics. Government, if not always clean, has at least been more or less freely elected. Under Mr. Boni, the country has taken a populist turn, with big bonuses for civil servants blamed in part by the International Monetary Fund for a doubling of the deficit.

Now, victims of the scheme associate Mr. Boni’s government with it. And there is corresponding fear among analysts that citizens will give up on the country’s young democracy and take to the streets as they did in 1989 to get rid of the military dictatorship.

“I’m afraid the people will lose confidence,” said Mathias Hounkpe, a political scientist who works for Parliament, known as the National Assembly.

He estimated that up to a quarter of the working population had been affected. Others agreed that the scheme was worrisome, both economically and politically, with one Western diplomat saying it had a huge impact on short-term discretionary spending.

“This business is a crisis of the regime, something that profoundly implicates the state,” said Roger Gbégnonvi, a former minister in Mr. Boni’s government. “If, behind every saver, there are only 10 people, my dear sir, then the whole country is shaken.”

A majority of lawmakers in Parliament have signed a letter demanding that Mr. Boni be tried before Benin’s Supreme Court for “favoring the activities” of the fraudulent company.

After all, “he’s fired his interior minister” for being involved, said one lawmaker who signed the letter, Kolawolé A. Idji, a former National Assembly president. “That’s not just anybody,” he said, adding “This is an affair of state.”

Officials did not object as I.C.C., while ensnaring its victims, multiplied its good works, helping to finance health clinics, feeding orphanages, digging wells and making donations to the evangelical Christian groups that are important here. Calendars and fabric showing President Boni and one of the company principals circulated.

“We are God’s workers,” the company’s director, Guy Akplogan, said in a television interview this year.

With its do-good reputation set, serious-looking men in dark suits promised secretaries, mechanics, low-level civil servants and others an investment that would deliver nearly half their principal back within three months.

In fact, I.C.C. was operating a classic pyramid scheme: money from one investor was used to pay another. The money was not invested anywhere, but buried in the basements of the company’s principals, said President Boni’s political counselor, Amos Elegbe.

Inside the labyrinthlike presidential compound, Mr. Elegbe dismissed suggestions that Mr. Boni was associated with the fraud, but acknowledged “there were fraudulent interventions on the part of structures of the state.”

He blamed the interior minister, Armand Zinzindohoué, who is accused of furnishing bodyguards to the company’s principals. And he excoriated the principal state prosecutor, Constant Amoussou, whom officials accuse of having blocked an investigation of I.C.C. once the alarm was sounded last fall. He has since been jailed.

“He was in it up to his neck,” Mr. Elegbe said. About 13 of the company’s officials are also in jail, Mr. Elegbe said.

And while the president did grant an audience to I.C.C. officials in May, it hardly meant much, Mr. Elegbe insisted, since he has also met with hundreds of other entities and officials.

Mr. Elegbe, a veteran of several governments here, largely blamed the greed of his compatriots. “I’m surprised to see how far we’ve gone into moral degeneration,” he said. “How could people be so greedy?”

But the crowd outside the prefecture last week was not in a mood to blame itself for the devastating losses.

“I saw the head of I.C.C. Services with members of the government on television,” said Michael Dagah, an electrician who said he invested $2,500. “The government sanctioned it. It seemed serious,” he lamented.

“People told me it was something good, and you would get lots of interest,” said Germaine Dagbo, who said she put in $1,200. “There was a photo of President Yayi in their offices,” she said. Now, “we’re turning everything over to God.”

Do me a favor Willy. Just go kick youirself in the ass, because I can't be there to do it for you. If I could, believe me, I would.

One more time, just for you, turd boy...so you think that some poor person who saved and scrimped and worked who knows how many hours a week, for who knows how many years, in a menial job and put his life savings of $1,200 in this ponzi is "rich"?

"I am saying a large percentage of them were greedy."

I am saying that you have no heart, no soul and no brains whatsoever. If you are an example of a "Christian", then God help you. You need help more than the poor people of Benin. You are a lowlife, pathetic, animal.

I answered your question regarding the greed factor. You just chose to ignore it because you don't like the answer and you cannot stand the truth. That is something that all conmen have in common isn't it?

Once again, asshole......The real and true greed in Ponzi schemes and MLMs comes more from the purveyors of these schemes than it does from the participants. That is where the real greed is, pal. You simply cannot believe that these people are victims, because you yourself promote and believe and and rip off people with the worthless, overpriced garbage that is peddled by the MLM that you are in. You both prey on the uneducated, the needy, the poor, the hopeless, the gullible, desperate and those without the tools and circumstances to better themselves and their lives.

That is the truth, and the answer, you Sociopath.

Glibness and Superficial Charm

Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt
A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

Shallow Emotions
When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

Incapacity for Love

Need for Stimulation
Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal.

Callousness/Lack of Empathy
Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature
Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency
Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends.

Irresponsibility/Unreliability
Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle
Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility
Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

That pretty much sums up your life.

MORE than 100,000 people in the tiny West African nation of Benin have lost their savings in a Ponzi scheme run by a now-defunct company that appeared to be publicly endorsed by the country's president.

The government said in August that more than 130,000 people gave their savings to Investment Consultancy and Computering Services. Together they lost more than $US130 million ($142.87 million).

The corporation was registered as a nonprofit computer service company and was operating illegally as a banking institution. ICC was forced to close on July 1, and more than a dozen of its employees were jailed.

But the reverberations have echoed to the top of Benin's power pyramid and now threaten President Boni Yayi, who appeared on television with ICC managers.

Television news shows showed Mr Yayi and other top government officials posing alongside the managers of the investment firm. The images were reproduced on T-shirts. While investors interpreted Mr Yayi's presence as an endorsement, the president did not officially speak in favour of ICC during the appearances.

In this country of 8.7 million people, the average yearly income hovers at $US750 ($824). Many lost
years of savings in the scam.

Electrician Lambert Saizonou, 40, planned to use his investment earnings to buy his first house. Now he has lost all of his savings. Jobs are scarce, and Mr Saizonou worries it will take years to save to buy a home for his family.

"They promised me an interest rate of 200 per cent," he said. "Now I must start saving again, little by little."

Herman Menton, a 32-year-old company manager, lost nearly $US1500 after investing in ICC for a year. Like many of ICC's investors, Mr Menton was referred to the company by friends who had already invested and lured him with the promise of high interest rates.

Perhaps the greatest swindle, some say, is the government's role in the investment company. Many victims say the sight of government officials in the ads reassured them their money would be safe.

"We saw them on television," said Pierre Dossa, a mechanic who lost his savings. "How could we not believe in it?"

Since the announcement that ICC's activities were fraudulent, Mr Yayi has swept his administration of those associated with the company. In July, he fired Armand Zinzindohoue, the minister of the interior, and Chief Prosecutor Georges Constant Amoussou.

More than a dozen individuals connected to ICC have been jailed, including the president's cousin and two of the company's top managers.

But some members of Benin's National Assembly say these measures do not go far enough. They accuse Mr Yayi of being complicit in ICC's corrupt activities, and they have called for his impeachment.

An investigative commission has been established, and the government is seeking to retrieve funds from ICC, even seizing personal items such as luxury cars and villas from the company's managers. WHERE IS THE GREED AGAIN, WILLYBOY??? Victims will be reimbursed according to how much money is recovered, according to Mr Azanai.

ICC managers could not be reached for comment, as the company no longer exists and many executives are in jail.

How many times do you have to read the TRUTH Willyboy before it actually sinks in and you admit that you don't know your arse from a hole in the ground? My guess, is never!

Much of the population of Benin simply could not afford to participate and be taken in by this Ponzi, numbnuts. They are poor as dirt! Also most of them live outside the cities (such as they are) in rural areas where the scheme never reached. It was purportrated in the cities for a reason! DUH! Don't let logic and reason get in the way of your lying, unfounded, b.s., ignorant statements though. How stupid are you? Wait.....you've already proven that many times here and on Scam. You really are a shameful excuse for a human being.

Tis funny...I am now the perpetrator of the Benin Ponzi scheme....amazing.

Again....

Some proof that folks around the national average wage were the majority of the victims? Not.

Some proof that the gov't (not individuals) was in collusion? Not.

Just ranting and raving and personal vendettas against me? Plenty.

Oh my, he's gonna kick my ass.... all because he's read the same articles I have, all because he can search on the internet and not prove my thesis wrong.

I don't care to be right or wrong, I made an observation.

Can a ponzi scheme work without greedy victims?

Can it?

Should the leaders and perpetrators of the scheme be prosecuted....duh...of course.

Are we seriously here to debate the obvious?

Is it a shame? Duh.

But can a ponzi scheme succeed without greed?

Tis a simple question which has instigated incredibly long responses that have nothing to do with the answer.

Oh and pilot...congrats on your skills of spewing venom and cutting and pasting...

top notch.

the classes were worth it...

Maybe you can answer the other question though.

For the third and last time, asshole:

The real and true greed in Ponzi schemes and MLMs comes more from the purveyors of these schemes than it does from the participants. That is where the real greed is, pal. You simply cannot believe that these people are victims, because you yourself promote and believe and and rip off people with the worthless, overpriced garbage that is peddled by the MLM that you are in. You both prey on the uneducated, the needy, the poor, the hopeless, the gullible, desperate and those without the tools and circumstances to better themselves and their lives.

Much of the population of Benin simply could not afford to participate and be taken in by this Ponzi, numbnuts. They are poor as dirt! Also most of them live outside the cities (such as they are) in rural areas where the scheme never reached. It was purportrated in the cities for a reason!

I, unlike you actually have a real business to run and a job, so I am going to work to earn a real living, make real income, honestly I must add, and do something that I can be proud of. It's a good thing too, because you make me sick and my stomach is churning just being in the same space as a souless, heartless, low life such as yourself.

You simply cannot and never will accept the TRUTH! That is what comes form a life of delusions, unacknowledged failure, no education, lying, and supporting MLMs.

Originally Posted by iamwil

I simply said that without 'Greed' greed for unrealistic returns, a ponzi scheme can't operate.

What "unrealistic" returns?

Is 10% a year too much?

Can you explain to me what your definition of an "unrealistic" return is?

Wil, why don't you answer the other questions that were posed to you on the other threads? You know, about your "job," how you can present proof that the cactus juice was independently tested by labs and proven that it has any benefits, how your "business" in TriVita is worth in excess of $50K, why you're not licensed to be a safety inspector, why the company you work for isn't licensed with the state of MD, you know....basic questions that would reinforce your credibility. You seem to have this strong habit of abandoning any threads that get a little too "tough" with the questions. Why is that?

Originally Posted by A Life Aloft

For the third and last time, asshole:

I am going to work to earn a real living, make real income, honestly I must add, and do something that I can be proud of. It's a good thing too, because you make me sick and my stomach is churning just being in the same space as a souless, heartless, low life such as yourself.

Mostly in the cities....doh...just what I said...mostly with folks with more income than average....duh.... doesn't take any psychic to figure that out...just you guys are a little slow on the uptake.

Get your blood pressure checked before you fly...

Originally Posted by Blue Wolf

What "unrealistic" returns?

Is 10% a year too much?

Can you explain to me what your definition of an "unrealistic" return is?

I wouldn't say so...but promises of 50-200% per year? I'd say generally unrealistic and should be looked into and surely wouldn't risk more than

Originally Posted by Unsaved Trash

Wil, why don't you answer the other questions
Why is that?

I've answered all the questions repeatedly, and am tired of repeating myself. I answer truthfully you call me a liar. I say I am not making profit, don't live in a mansion, don't drive a mercedes, you all say I am bragging.

You've proven there is no need for me to prove anything to you as you don't have the ability to read or listen. So I'm done with that.

Is this yet to be another thread about me or scam.com? You guys were doing so well, you were almost at 50% of your discussion actually discussing something. But nooooo, gotta attack iamwil again....look he posted pounce, lets make it personal...forget the facts, forget what is being said...

wah...my tummy is upset.

Someone here about to stay on topic and tell me how a ponzi scheme works without greed involved?

For what the 5th time? Of course the perpetrators should be prosecuted...

Originally Posted by iamwil

I've answered all the questions repeatedly, and am tired of repeating myself. I answer truthfully you call me a liar. I say I am not making profit, don't live in a mansion, don't drive a mercedes, you all say I am bragging.

Show me one time that I've called you a liar. Link please.

No, you have not answered any of the questions others and myself have put forth. For example, where is the documentation about the studies on this:

http://www.realscam.com/f16/product-....html#post3585

You never answered it, as a matter of fact, you abandoned the thread again.

You've proven there is no need for me to prove anything to you as you don't have the ability to read or listen. So I'm done with that.

Oh really? I read and I comprehend. You won't answer the questions. Here are a choice few for you.

http://www.realscam.com/f9/why-mlms-....html#post3595

http://www.realscam.com/f9/why-mlms-....html#post3595

http://www.realscam.com/f9/why-mlms-....html#post3558

These are just a few you have skirted. So don't give me any of your regular bullshit about answering the questions. You haven't answered them. You did however report them.

Is this yet to be another thread about me or scam.com? You guys were doing so well, you were almost at 50% of your discussion actually discussing something. But nooooo, gotta attack iamwil again....look he posted pounce, lets make it personal...forget the facts, forget what is being said...

This isn't scam.com. You are whining about questions when you're the one that brings this stuff up. You've made the statements, now back it up. EVERYTHING you've said is in print and easily found. It's not an attack, I'm asking you to verify anything you state and you won't do it. I guess you don't feel you can be questioned regarding your own statements.

wah...my tummy is upset.

As well it should be. That happens when you're cornered and the adrenaline flows. Have you ever witnessed a rat that has been caught in a stricky trap and can't free itself?

Someone here about to stay on topic and tell me how a ponzi scheme works without greed involved?

On topic? You're one to talk. Are you a moderator now? If you go to the threads you abandoned because of pointed questions, then all would be well if you answered anything. Try it sometime.

For what the 5th time? Of course the perpetrators should be prosecuted...

Was that a real answer? Amazing. Care to try a few more?

Let's see if its possible to patiently point out a few obvious issues relating to the Benin Ponzi and the comments of iamwil, which are becoming increasingly inane with every post he makes.

Firstly ALL ponzi are the responsibility of the perpetrators and not the victims, irrespective of whether they are "greedy" or not. Any element of greed by a victim just helps the perpetrators along with their greed and intent to steal. Ponzis are illegal and their perpetrators are criminals. PERIOD. We have witnessed a major crime in Benin with many victims - that is the issue.

Secondly One and a Half percent of a population is a massive proportion of that population.. Imagine a ponzi in the US which affected just 1% of its population! No ponzi in the US has ever affected that number of its citizens. Try adding a few zeros after the decimal to get realistic numbers.

Thirdly, given that many of the victims participated in family groups and that many others already support their extended families, the comment by lawyer and former justice minister, Gustave Anani Cassa “No family has been left untouched by this,” makes any argument that only a minor number of people were affect null and void and more than a little stupid.

and Fourthly, what do you describe as greed? the wish to have a second color TV, a bigger car, a holiday in exotic countries, or to feed your family better,or to feed more of your family? Even greed is relative, especially if the motive for making money is to meet necessities of life and not luxuries.

Iamwil, you screwed up when you made your comment about greedy victims when it relates to the Benin Ponzi. So now, instead of defending your error, why dont you just admit you made a careless remark that showed your ignorance of this specific situation and was totally out of place. You could also start to understand that not everyone on this planet lives in the good old US of A, but that the fraudsters amongst the US citizens are not behind in taking advantage of those who have not had the benefit of a US education.

Originally Posted by iamwil

I wouldn't say so...but promises of 50-200% per year? I'd say generally unrealistic and should be looked into and surely wouldn't risk more than

So if 10% a year is not unrealistic, I'm wondering why you mentioned Madoff and his "high" returns earlier in this thread. They didn't seem high to me. They were modest, in my opinion.

And I do recall you said this:

Originally Posted by iamwil

My contention is that without greed Ponzi schemes can not and will not work (unless they are run by a gov't like social security and taken out of our income before we see it.)

You guys are indicating Ponzi schemes works without greed...please tell me how.

Okay . . . the Madoff ponzi scheme worked for decades, didn't it?

And it didn't offer unrealistically high returns.

Doesn't that prove to you that ponzi schemes can work without people (i.e. the victims) being really greedy?

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

You could also start to understand that not everyone on this planet lives in the good old US of A, but that the fraudsters amongst the US citizens are not behind in taking advantage of those who have not had the benefit of a US education.

Excuse me Wishful, but you have to realize that even here in the USA, there are many gullible and stupid idiots that fall for all of the garbage offered out there....MLMs, diet pills, dating sites, get rich quick schemes, penis enlargement pills, uh, and the list goes on. Actually, I don't think it has that much to do with education. I think it has to do with how little common sense the person has in the first place. In the USA, it's very little. Too bad it's spreading worldwide. That's why Ponzis and MLMs are thriving.

Unsaved Trash,

Of course you are right in what you say, but it doesn't change the fact that the US has yet to have over 1% of its population involved in a single ponzi scheme, nor any other country in the developed world that I am aware of!

There are probably better words than education, if you refer to it in its strict sense of schooling, Perhaps, it would be better to say, education and ease of access to information. At least we are warned, even if we ignore warnings and common sense and, on top of that, we have easy computer access and English is the most widely spoken language in the world.

Having said that, I know you agree that the situation in Benin just doesnt compare. (and their official language is french)

The point however is that it is notable that, with advent of the internet, sophisticated fraudsters from the developed West, including the USA, are targeting non english speaking and less developed communities, more and more. They know that it is even harder for these people to do their due diligence than it is for the average american and it suits them down to the ground.

Wishful - A better choice of words from me should have been "common sense" rather than education. I do agree with you 100% except I may be a bit more jaded than you concerning MLMs and Ponzi schemes. One thing is for sure, most are going to get screwed.

Originally Posted by Blue Wolf

So if 10% a year is not unrealistic, I'm wondering why you mentioned Madoff and his "high" returns earlier in this thread. They didn't seem high to me. They were modest, in my opinion.

And I do recall you said this:



Okay . . . the Madoff ponzi scheme worked for decades, didn't it?

And it didn't offer unrealistically high returns.

Doesn't that prove to you that ponzi schemes can work without people (i.e. the victims) being really greedy?

In his 1992, "Avellino and Bienes" interview with The Wall Street Journal, Madoff discussed his supposed methods: In the 1970s, he had placed invested funds in "convertible arbitrage positions in large-cap stocks, with promised investment returns of 18% to 20%",[36] and in 1982, he began using futures contracts on the stock index, and then placed put options on futures during the 1987 stock market crash.[36] A few analysts performing due diligence had been unable to replicate the Madoff fund's past returns using historic price data for U.S. stocks and options on the indexes.[37][38] Barron's raised the possibility that Madoff's returns were most likely due to front running his firm's brokerage clients.[39]

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

Firstly ALL ponzi are the responsibility of the perpetrators and not the victims, irrespective of whether they are "greedy" or not.

Agreed, haven't said otherwise. I have said that I don't believe the scheme will work without greed.

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

Secondly One and a Half percent of a population is a massive proportion of that population..

Again agreed, hence my saying I am not saying the majority of this impovershed nation is greedy. The majority did not participate.

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

Thirdly, given that many of the victims participated in family groups and that many others already support their extended families, the comment by lawyer and former justice minister, Gustave Anani Cassa “No family has been left untouched by this,” makes any argument that only a minor number of people were affect null and void and more than a little stupid.

Of course no family has been untouched..it is a euphemism, no family was untouched by 9/11 either. In their case their entire economy is affected by the 1.5%. Just as ours would be. I think we'll also find that it wasn't mostly groups that participated, but individuals...and then of course they encouraged their families to join with them...but these are all included in the 1.5% stretch it to average 3 people per investment, which I don't think you can, that leaves 95% of the people not involved directly.

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

and Fourthly, what do you describe as greed? the wish to have a second color TV, a bigger car, a holiday in exotic countries, or to feed your family better,or to feed more of your family? Even greed is relative, especially if the motive for making money is to meet necessities of life and not luxuries.

I don't think many of these folks were buying a second color tv with their returns.

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

Iamwil, you screwed up when you made your comment about greedy victims when it relates to the Benin Ponzi. So now, instead of defending your error, why dont you just admit you made a careless remark that showed your ignorance of this specific situation and was totally out of place. You could also start to understand that not everyone on this planet lives in the good old US of A, but that the fraudsters amongst the US citizens are not behind in taking advantage of those who have not had the benefit of a US education.

I said repeatedly I could be wrong. It is an observation, which since it was me making it you all chose to pounce.

Can a ponzi scheme work without greed? tis a simple question.

Originally Posted by Unsaved Trash

except I may be a bit more jaded than you concerning ... Ponzi schemes. One thing is for sure, most are going to get screwed.

Surely it isn't 'jaded' to think ponzi schemes awful ventures in which most get screwed.

Of course no family has been untouched..it is a euphemism, no family was untouched by 9/11 either

Someone who really doesn' want to understand the way a third world country operates. or has a reading problem.

The comment was NOT a euphemism. The majority of the people in Benin with work support their extended families. One working man with a wage that provides a standard of living that would be unthinkably meagre in the developed west often supports several other families, including those of his wife's family out of his earnings. The knock on effect is economic. It has been widely reported from Benin that the number of families affected were far more than the imediate families of the participating victims.

Equally, it has been reported that some families formed groups to raise the cash to participate.

This argument with Iamwill is a complete waste of time and energy. His need to be right (even if he is wrong) far surpasses his interest or indignation at the damage caused by a sophisticated fraud perpetrated by sophisticated fraudsters on an unsophisticated nation, which will have far reaching effects which may even include the destabilization of its political system.

There is nothing intrinsically greedy in a person investing money in a scheme that has the appearance of a government backed philanthropic organization which promises a rate of return when they neither know it is impossible nor that it is probably illegal.

If it had happened in the US, it might have been a different story, but even then there is still a difference between and greed and ignorance coupled with desperation.

To finish it seems to be a fair comment to say that

The members of this forum condemn the ponzi scheme in Benin and would like to see all its owners, promoters and all those who helped its perpetration in jail and the victims compensated

and if there are any exceptions to this statement, they should be ashamed of themselves.

Unsaved Trash - perhaps less jaded and still going through the "indignant" stage, but I take your point about the "dumbing down" of America.

the comment was really made to compare the difference in the possible ability of a US english speaking citizen to avoid them with that of the population of Benin, which is considerable

Wil - I would assume you "missed" this or are you just pulling your usual routine? http://www.realscam.com/f16/ponzi-sc....html#post3769

Originally Posted by WishfulThinking

Someone who really doesn' want to understand the way a third world country operates. or has a reading problem.


This argument with Iamwill is a complete waste of time and energy. His need to be right (even if he is wrong) far surpasses his interest or indignation at the damage caused by a sophisticated fraud perpetrated by sophisticated fraudsters on an unsophisticated nation, which will have far reaching effects which may even include the destabilization of its political system.

You have just summed up every conversation with him on this forum and on Scam on any subject. Between the ignorance, the plain stupidity, the lack of reason and logic, the deflections, backpedaling, avoidance, the off topic and ridiculous analogies/comparisons, lack of reading and comprehension skills, the lying and propagated fairy tales, denial, delusions, lack of knowledge, twisting of the facts to suit his own views, refusal to answer any direct questions, critical thinking, inability to learn anything, his obvious envy issues of others, being a complete an utter failure in the workforce, claiming he has not made statements that he clearly has, asinine and absurd statements, repetitive ongoing recalcitrance, utter blindness, lack of basic common sense, uneducated opinions, trying to turn the tables on others when he is backed into a corner like a trapped cockroach, the need to believe that what he thinks is the truth is the truth- even though he wouldn't know the truth if it bit him in the ass, he's a total waste of space basically. He is the king of going around in circles that lead to nowhere and saying nothing of value.

Originally Posted by A Life Aloft

He is the king of going around in circles that lead to nowhere and saying nothing of value.

You forgot that he also won't answer questions when cornered.

Originally Posted by Unsaved Trash

You forgot that he also won't answer questions when cornered.

He never answers any question with a direct answer. Never. Then when he is asked the same question(s) 20 more times, and never answers it/them, and then it's pointed out that he has never answered the question(s), he just lies and says he has. lmao It's like talking to someone who is a patient in a mental institution, frankly.

Wil, you didn't even answer my question.

(Sigh.)

Let me start over.

From wikipedia:

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Madoff investment scandal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Madoff's annual returns were "unusually consistent",[46] around 10%, and were a key factor in perpetuating the fraud.[47] Ponzi schemes typically pay returns of 20% or higher, and collapse quickly. One Madoff fund, which described its "strategy" as focusing on shares in the Standard & Poor's 100-stock index, reported a 10.5% annual return during the previous 17 years.

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So let's say somebody invested in a Madoff fund, with the expectation of receiving 10.5% a year, based upon the 17-year performance of the fund.

Then he loses all of his money, because it was a ponzi scheme.

So here's my question:

Doesn't that prove to you that ponzi schemes can work without people (i.e. the victims) being really greedy?