Anti-Arbonne newbie

Hi all,

I got here through a blog called "A (MLM) Skeptic".

I started researching about MLMs after a family member was "converted" to Arbonne -they prey on health-conscious people and women who like to try out new skincare products. If they were an honest and ethical company I would have signed up as a "preferred customer" (ie. buy products only), but after doing some due diligence I discovered many fishy aspects and their pyramid scheme.

Anyway, just wanted to say hi to everyone here. I enjoyed reading a few posts, and look forward to reading more! :RpS_smile:

Have a great New Year!

Welcome!

http://www.arbonne.com/images/transparent.gif Download PDF

Arbonne does what many MLMS do to hide the horrific losses of the reps. The income Disclosure linked above only shows what participants that earned a commission made. They cleverly leave out those that earned no commission and don't tell you how huge that number really is. So, glad you are not drinking the Koolaid! I look forward to your contributions here!

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Originally Posted by skeptic99

Hi all,

I would have signed up as a "preferred customer" (ie. buy products only)

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Welcome to the thread. I think you will find that once the "opportunity" piece of MLM is stripped away very few people remain as customers. The products are simply priced too high for most people to sustain a retail sales business or to benefit from prolonged self consumption.

Do a quick EBAY search and compare the results with what is available to you as a preferred customer. You may find some bargains from prior affiliates who loaded up their garages to make bonus.


arbonne | eBay

3,585 results for arbonne

Arbonne RE9 Set - Advanced Aging Skincare **New** $215.00

Same kit $323 on the company website.

Hi both,
Thank you for further enlightening me :)

>Soapboxmom
I had never looked at things from the Income Disclosure standpoint. Thanks for sharing that knowledge!

>ribshaw
I'm aware that lots of Arbonne products are sold on eBay, mainly by former "independent consultants" who want to get rid of their stock. It's unbelievable how much money they spend...

Anyway, now I know that I'd never purchase these products because they're nothing special compared to other cosmetics sold elsewhere. And they're overpriced as you stated. There are also many reports of people who got breakouts and red skin after using them.

Welcome skeptic99! I saw you on pink truth also and commend you for trying to find out all you can about these `scammertunities' before someone tries to suck you in. Sounds like you and I share very similar experiences. For me it was a close relative that first joined a Mary Kay competitor MLM for all of two years (during which they made my life hell because of harassing me to participate) then quit to begin another scammertunity-World Finance Group/Transamerica/Revolution Financial Management! This individual doesn't even have a finance background! None nil nada! But it appears the koolaide makers have convinced said individual that it is easy-peasy simple as can be.......a trained chimp could do it!
Joining these chat groups has helped me gain knowledge. At least I know better what to expect...which is just sheer cra cra (crazy crazy) lies fed to the minions below from those at the top. I have caught this person telling flat out lies that even in the face of casual logic one could see are not true. So that of course led me to a whole thing about cults, commercial cults (as discussed in parts of this site and the PT site) and so on. Keep Reading and asking questions that is my strategy because I see that arguing with this person is pointless...they just cut me off and dig in harder. All I can do is spread the word to those who ARE willing to listen so they don't get sucked in. At this point, all I can do is limit it to sites like this, because it appears the more I push on those near and dear to this individual the more they back away from me also! There also seem to be a lot of people out there who just don't want to take the time and do the due diligence it takes (which in mho is not that much) to learn more and avoid being scammed! I can't tell you how many times I sent one person who actually asked questions, links to this site, pink truth, mlm-thetruth, etc and I don't even think they read it. So, at what point do you just give up trying to tell others?
Not quite sure.

Everyone wants to believe in the dream. Until one's friends and family sober up from the Koolaid there isn't much one can do. It is so painful to admit to oneself that they were mislead and scammed. Many victims lose their trust in others and worse yet themselves as they feel so stupid for getting involved in these uneconomic schemes and are afraid to trust their own judgment.

Scammertunity is a great term. I hope you won't mind me borrowing that gem!

One thing is sure its a legal business so that's why its not correct to call it a scam or a fraud.

If you read all the laws you realize that there's no crime in being the 1% of the top who get nice profits. Its a 100% legal scheme so you should not blame it!

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Originally Posted by Realname

One thing is sure its a legal business so that's why its not correct to call it a scam or a fraud.

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It is not clear these MLMs businesses are operating legally or simply breaking the law while regulators look the other way.

A (MLM) Skeptic: MLM Dictionary: Koscot Test

If there is no true retail market for the products being sold (purchased by affiliates) then it is a pyramid scam, not a viable business for individuals. 51% retail may pass the legal smell test, but does it pass the business opportunity test? Can everyone "self consume" their way to success? Since 99% consistently lose money in MLM, by any measure that question has been answered in spades.

It is really up to the MLM industry to clean up its own house if it does not like the term scam, but I suspect they prefer to pocket cash from the gullible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Realname

If you read all the laws you realize that there's no crime in being the 1% of the top who get nice profits. Its a 100% legal scheme so you should not blame it!

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Assuming the laws are not being violated there is no crime, many of us are not convinced.

The better question might be do people want to work in an industry where 1% knowingly take cash from 99% and offer them little more than an illusion in exchange. OR do they want to focus on areas that provide a much greater probability of success? Five years of smoke blown up your ass doing a fakeo MLM scheme is five years you can't be doing X which while never 100% is ALWAYS preferable to the failure rate in MLM.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Realname

One thing is sure its a legal business so that's why its not correct to call it a scam or a fraud.

If you read all the laws you realize that there's no crime in being the 1% of the top who get nice profits. Its a 100% legal scheme so you should not blame it!

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Though most MLMs skate by as legal, that does not mean they are not scams. Most if closely examined would not pass legal muster in many jurisdictions. So, in my opinion and that of many very learned people all MLMs are scams plain and simple. Law enforcement is way too understaffed and underfunded to close all these questionable deals down.

Robert Fitzpatrick correctly states:

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Lie #10: MLM is not a pyramid scheme because products are sold.

Truth: The sale of products is in no way a protection from anti-pyramid scheme statutes or unfair trade practices set forth in federal and state law. MLMs that sell useful, quality products have been successfully prosecuted under anti-pyramid scheme laws by state and federal officials. Recent court rulings are using a 70% rule to determine an MLM’s legality. At least 70% of all goods sold by the MLM company must be purchased by non-distributors. This standard would place most MLM companies outside the law. The largest of all MLMs acknowledges that only 18% of its sales are made to non-distributors.”

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FitzPatrick is of course referring to Scamway.

Why Retailing Does Not Occur in Multi-Level Marketing Companies | Fraud Files Forensic Accounting Blog

again as has been pointed out ad nauseum, Bernie Madeoff was considered to be running a legal operation for DECADES before he was finally busted. Enron . Worldcom. need i even bother to say more? Oh daggummit why not? there is proof positive that these things are deemed legal at the moment, because regulators have been paid off to rule them thus! go to Robert Fitzpatricks web site, ot the myriad of other sites, hell including this one, that talk about this very issue!

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Originally Posted by Soapboxmom

Everyone wants to believe in the dream. Until one's friends and family sober up from the Koolaid there isn't much one can do. It is so painful to admit to oneself that they were mislead and scammed. Many victims lose their trust in others and worse yet themselves as they feel so stupid for getting involved in these uneconomic schemes and are afraid to trust their own judgment.

Scammertunity is a great term. I hope you won't mind me borrowing that gem!

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oh by All means my friend please feel free to do so! you are one of the people who has already helped me so much, i would be delighted if you repeated that phrase

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Soapboxmom

Though most MLMs skate by as legal, that does not mean they are not scams. Most if closely examined would not pass legal muster in many jurisdictions. So, in my opinion and that of many very learned people all MLMs are scams plain and simple. Law enforcement is way too understaffed and underfunded to close all these questionable deals down.

Robert Fitzpatrick correctly states:


FitzPatrick is of course referring to Scamway.

Why Retailing Does Not Occur in Multi-Level Marketing Companies | Fraud Files Forensic Accounting Blog

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The 70% rule does not exist in most juridisdictions. That rule does not make any sense because it consider distributors as "non customers" .

I know many distributors who joined mlm schemes because of the products and not only because of the business oportunity! In fact if distributor does not like the products he/she would never join that mlm! They know that business oportunity its just an "extra" included in the subscription package! So only a fool would buy tons of products that he/she doesn't like to use.....

Realname That very argument was addressed quite well by mlm skeptic, per the link below...

A (MLM) Skeptic: Bad Argument: Distributors can't lose money if they enjoy the product (WTF?!)

And again as has been pointed out ad nauseum, if the product were so great, why not put it in retail stores? Why make outlandish income claims to get people to become distributors? Why have all kinds of mandatory hoopla rah rah events? Why have a mandatory minimum purchase requirement inorder to continue to `qualify' for the "discount"?
It is also nauseating how once one tries to pin these scammers down with their very own arguments, they deflect and distract with completely unrelated arguments and/or blame the victim!
:watching_you:

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Originally Posted by Realname

I know many distributors who joined mlm schemes because of the products and not only because of the business oportunity!

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And I know of many distributors who join MLM schemes because of the "business opportunity" and because they ARE MLM "schemes"

Therein lies the problem for anyone contemplating joining an MLM company.

Forget about the legality.

If the potential exists for someone to profit mainly from recruiting and the MLM company allows it to happen, then the scheme is doomed to fail - taking genuine members' money along with it

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Originally Posted by kath

Realname That very argument was addressed quite well by mlm skeptic, per the link below...

A (MLM) Skeptic: Bad Argument: Distributors can't lose money if they enjoy the product (WTF?!)

And again as has been pointed out ad nauseum, if the product were so great, why not put it in retail stores? Why make outlandish income claims to get people to become distributors? Why have all kinds of mandatory hoopla rah rah events? Why have a mandatory minimum purchase requirement inorder to continue to `qualify' for the "discount"?
It is also nauseating how once one tries to pin these scammers down with their very own arguments, they deflect and distract with completely unrelated arguments and/or blame the victim!
:watching_you:

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I read that article and I think its not correct when the author says that distributors cannot receive refund because they use the products. They are eligible to get refunds like any customers if the product is not the same as described by seller or not in good conditions. Being distributor does not means that there's no refund policy!

And most of top mlms companies don't offer you more than 1 or 2 level of comissions so the product will not be overpriced.

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Originally Posted by Realname

And most of top mlms companies don't offer you more than 1 or 2 level of comissions so the product will not be overpriced.

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A little bit of proof would be nice if you're going to make such sweeping statements,

And an explanation of what is has to do with the subject of this thread which is Arbonne would be lovely, as well.

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Originally Posted by Realname

The 70% rule does not exist in most juridisdictions.

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There are also countries that want almost nothing to do with MLM.

India to ban MLM completely?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Realname

That rule does not make any sense because it consider distributors as "non customers" .

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What makes less sense is defining someone a customer or a distributor depending on what is convenient . Given Arbonne's own numbers:

In the United States, Arbonne had an average of 197,527 Arbonne Independent Consultants during 2013.** Any Arbonne Independent Consultant who received Earnings in a month is an “Active Arbonne Independent Consultant” for purposes of this compensation summary. On a monthly basis, the United States had an average of 20,000 Active
Arbonne Independent Consultants in 2013, or 10% of all U.S. Arbonne Independent Consultants.

So 10% gross "something", after time and expenses we are left with probably 1% that actually have net income.

As a business opportunity, MLM has proven a consistent flop for 99% of those who enroll.

This study is worth a look:



I can say confidently that as a general rule, the more a new recruit invests in an MLM program, the more he or she loses.

http://www.ftc.gov/sites/default/fil...0008-57281.pdf

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Originally Posted by Realname

I know many distributors who joined mlm schemes because of the products and not only because of the business oportunity!

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As Kath said, if this was about being a "buying club", what is the need for the continual recruitment of a largely unpaid salesfarce and access to their family and friends?

It is more likely people are lured with the opportunity of making a ton of money and they briefly become customers. Continued attrition in MLM indicates that even "self consumption" doesn't offer much of a value proposition.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by littleroundman

A little bit of proof would be nice if you're going to make such sweeping statements,

And an explanation of what is has to do with the subject of this thread which is Arbonne would be lovely, as well.

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Arbonne has multi-level compensation plan but for example pola inc has a single level compensation plan. A comparison between a failed and successfully mlm company allow you to understand clearly why mlm companies like arbonne will gonna fail and others not...

I suggest that we start a new thread about MLM. We can call it one of these titles:

In Defense of MLM
MLM: A Real Business Opportunity or A Cult?
Pros and Cons of MLM
Or any name that works better.

This way we don't flood this thread going back and forth. This also would allow others to find it both pro and con and comment. Just my 2 cents worth.

that sounds like a good idea!