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Thread: clinical hypnosis v cbt

  1. #1
    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Hi all, I was wondering after seeing both and their effectiveness, in admittedly a limited span of cases, if there is a consensus in the public of which is more valuable.
    Personally I find COGNITIVE BEHAVIOURAL THERAPY pretty limited ( limited to the depth of the clients pocket and actual wish to get better) whereas I have yet to see hypnosis not have a relatively instantaneous positive effect.
    The problematic area seems to be the regulation of the quacks who wish to do an internet course and then call themselves a hypnotherapist.
    I am not sure yet but it seems to be a underutilised tool noting CBT has been proven for decade to be a farce.

    your thoughts are appreciated.
    Last edited by consolidation; 03-31-2011 at 11:35 PM. Reason: USED A ACRONYM WITHOUT EXPLAINING IT

  2. #2
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Effectiveness when dealing with what ???

    Depression ???

    Hypnosis on its' own or integrated with CBT ???

    There are great many who within the medical and caring professions who consider that hypnosis is both ineffective and, at times, totally inappropriate as a treatment for depression.

    Integrating hypnosis with CBT is an entirely different matter, and one in which there has been some interesting research in Australia:

    Burrows, G. D. and Boughton, S. G. (2001) Hypnosis and Depression, in International Handbook of Clinical Hypnosis (eds G. D. Burrows, R. O. Stanley and P. B. Bloom), John Wiley & Sons, Ltd, Chichester, UK. doi: 10.1002/0470846402.ch9
    Editor Information


    1. 2The University of Melbourne, Australia
    2. 3The University of Pennsylvania, USA


    Author Information


    1. 1University of Western Australia, Australia
    2. 2The University of Melbourne, Australia


    Publication History


    1. Published Online: 28 DEC 2001
    2. Published Print: 9 AUG 2001


    ISBN Information

    Print ISBN: 9780471970095
    As far as your comment WRT the cost and efficacy of CBT, I find it hard to agree with your conclusions, given the range and type of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy delivery services now available in many/most Western countries.

    The St Vincents Hospital Anxiety Clinic, for example is claiming around a 90% "success" rate for its' online CRUfAD CBT based program.

    IM(very)HO, there are way too many possible variables contained within the quesation to be able to give other than an extremely generalized and therefore potentially misleading answer.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  3. #3
    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    Effectiveness when dealing with what ???

    Depression ???

    Hypnosis on its' own or integrated with CBT ???

    There are great many who within the medical and caring professions who consider that hypnosis is both ineffective and, at times, totally inappropriate as a treatment for depression.

    Integrating hypnosis with CBT is an entirely different matter, and one in which there has been some interesting research in Australia:

    As far as your comment WRT the cost and efficacy of CBT, I find it hard to agree with your conclusions, given the range and type of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy delivery services now available in many/most Western countries.

    The St Vincents Hospital Anxiety Clinic, for example is claiming around a 90% "success" rate for its' online CRUfAD CBT based program.

    IM(very)HO, there are way too many possible variables contained within the quesation to be able to give other than an extremely generalized and therefore potentially misleading answer.
    Thanks for your input and I agree the question was quite wide.
    As for the CBT and non clinical depression answer you have given , I would have to strenuously disagree I am afraid.

    It just does not work for any longerthan the CBT is ongoing, as soon as the treatment finishes 60% of all pt's relapse within a year and require follow up.

    I know that in Australia, people can become a hynotherapist purely from the internet and thus it's a weak area for the profession as it has very few real well trained professionals.
    After looking into Australia I noted that only one area (county/state? ) requires any formal training and that's South Australia.
    In that place you need to be a registered Psychologist to use hypnosis for therapy. The rest of the areas/states? do not require it.
    CBT is slow and has minimal use and as a SMO or Medical Professional in a ED I see it failing daily with people rlasping and ending up in our department regularly.
    The registered and practicing Psychiatrist's that I have spoken too seem agreed; it is the best and safest that that have, but it is far from perfect and lately many of them and the Psyhologists have been exploring hypnosis referals with encouraging results.
    It seems fears and phobias can be generally cured in 2-3 sessions and things like smoking can be ceased in just the one session if a registered clinical hypnotherapist is utilised. The health benefits of that alone are huge! Things like depression/PTSD/destructive or dangerous habits/Fears/Phobias seem well suited and responsive to it though.
    My peers here have informed/educated me though, that people with organic mental health problems should never undergo hypnosis though and of course.. Things like non clinical depression/PTSD/habits/Fears/Phobias seem well suited and responsive to it though as they are rarely organic.
    Thanks for the thoughts and the research, it is a cbt center of a hospital that self publishes its own research though. I couldnt find an external audit of their research and would love to read it if possible, much has changed since 2001 when the reference you chose was published and even more since 1998/1999/2000 when the data was first collected for that study. I noted with crufad.org they are still collecting research and will look for something more current. The are also not CBT based, they still have a CBT component but use guided imagery a lot, a type of hypnosis!
    Obviously it is better regulated in countries like the UK/Europe an Can / US and I can only talk about that which I have experienced or read about.

    Online CBT thats funny! thanks you made me smile with that one
    Last edited by consolidation; 04-01-2011 at 04:44 AM.

  4. #4
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    It would be an excellent outcome if a condition such as depression could be reduced to such simple terms.

    However, the devil is in the detail and the numbers tell the story.

    Your own NIHM figures show that the 12 month prevalence within the adult population of the USA is running at 6.7%.

    With the current population of the US sitting at 310+ MILLION, raw statistics alone tell us a single definitive conclusion being made about ANYTHING related to the illness will be inaccurate.

    And that is without including the rate of depression among children, differences in the illness between the sexes, varying ethnic, age and socio-economic groups or countries.







    1 Kessler RC, Chiu WT, Demler O, Walters EE. Prevalence, severity, and comorbidity of twelve-month DSM-IV disorders in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication (NCS-R). Archives of General Psychiatry, 2005 Jun;62(6):617-27.
    2 Ibid
    3 Kessler RC, Berglund PA, Demler O, Jin R, Walters EE. Lifetime prevalence and age-of-onset distributions of DSM-IV disorders in the National Comorbidity Survey Replication (NCS-R). Archives of General Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;62(6):593-602.
    4 Ibid
    5 Ibid
    6 Wang PS, Lane M, Olfson M, Pincus HA, Wells KB, Kessler RC. Twelve month use of mental health services in the United States. Archives of General Psychiatry. 2005 Jun;62(6):629-640.
    Given the scope of the problem within the US alone, 6.7% of a 2011 estimated population of 311,081,000, how likely is a single MD or a group of people on an internet forum will be able to make anything but an anecdotal observation ???
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  5. #5
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Here's Wikipedias' list of famous people with major depressive disorder.

    Might I respectfully suggest the likelihood of finding a common denominator WRT causation, severity and/or potentially effective treatment is non existent.
    List of people with major depressive disorder

    A


    • Caroline Aherne, British Comedian[1]
    • Buzz Aldrin, American astronaut, the second man to set foot on the moon[2]
    • Woody Allen, American film director[3][4]
    • Claus von Amsberg, German diplomat and husband of Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands[5]
    • Hans Christian Andersen, Danish writer[6]
    • Hideaki Anno, Japanese animator and film director[7]
    • Malcolm Arnold, British composer[8]
    • Richard Ashcroft, English singer-songwriter[9]
    • Machado de Assis, Brazilian writer[10]

    B


    • David Banner, American hip hop artist[11]
    • Parveen Babi, Bollywood actress.[12]
    • Maria Bamford, Comedienne and voice-over actress[13]
    • Charles Baudelaire, French poet[14]
    • Ingmar Bergman, Swedish film director[15]
    • William Blake, British poet and painter[16]
    • Kjell Magne Bondevik, Norwegian politician and former Prime Minister of Norway[17]
    • David Bohm, British quantum physicist[18]
    • Terry Bradshaw, American football player[19], Football Analyst, Sports Anchor
    • Art Buchwald, American humorist[20]
    • Joe Budden, American hip hop artist[21]
    • Robert Burton British academic (author of The Anatomy of Melancholy)[22]

    C


    • Anthony Callea, Australian pop singer[23]
    • Drew Carey, American comedian and actor[24]
    • Jim Carrey, Canadian actor and comedian[25]
    • Dick Cavett, American talk show host[26]
    • Melanie Chisholm, English pop singer-songwriter[27]
    • Raymond Chandler, writer of detective fiction[28]
    • Iris Chang, Chinese American writer and historian[29]
    • David Chase, American television writer, television director and television producer (The Rockford Files, Northern Exposure, The Sopranos)[30]
    • Lawton Chiles, American politician[17]
    • Agatha Christie, English crime writer[31]
    • Winston Churchill, British Prime Minister [32]
    • Kurt Cobain, American singer-songwriter and guitarist (Nirvana)[33]
    • Catherine Cookson, English author[34]
    • Leonard Cohen, Canadian songwriter[35]
    • Joseph Conrad, Polish writer[36]
    • Calvin Coolidge, 30th President of the United States.[37]
    • Billy Corgan, American musician (The Smashing Pumpkins)[38]
    • Rivers Cuomo, American musician (Weezer)[39]
    • Ian Curtis, British musician, leader of Joy Division[40]

    D


    • Roméo Dallaire, Canadian general, senator and humanitarian[41]
    • Rodney Dangerfield, American comedian and actor[42]
    • Edgar Degas, French painter[43]
    • John Denver, American musician[44]
    • Charles Dickens, British writer[16]
    • Fyodor Dostoyevsky, Russian writer [45]
    • Nick Drake, British musician[46]
    • Doug Duncan, American politician, candidate for the Democratic nomination for Governor of Maryland in the 2006 elections[17]
    • Patty Duke, American actress[47]
    • Kirsten Dunst, American actress[48]

    E


    • Thomas Eagleton, American senator[49]
    • T. S. Eliot, American poet[50]
    • James Ellroy, American crime writer[51]
    • Eminem, American Rapper[52]
    • Robert Enke, German footballer [53]
    • Marcus Epstein, American paleoconservative political activist and commentator[54]

    F


    • William Faulkner, American author[55]
    • Paul Feyerabend, Austrian philosopher of science[56]
    • Harrison Ford, American actor[57]
    • Michel Foucault, French philosopher[58]
    • Nelly Furtado, Canadian musician[59]
    • John Frusciante, American musician[60]

    G


    • Geoff Gallop, Australian politician[61]
    • Romain Gary, French-Lithuanian-Polish novelist and diplomat[62]
    • Paul Gauguin, French painter[63]
    • Carlo Gesualdo, Italian composer, after murdering his wife, her lover, and his own son[64]
    • Paul Getty, British philanthropist[65]
    • Vincent van Gogh, Dutch painter[16]
    • Francisco de Goya, Spanish painter[66]
    • Spalding Gray, American actor and writer[67]
    • Graham Greene, British writer[68]
    • Zack Greinke, American MLB pitcher[69]
    • Eddie Griffin, American NBA Player[70]

    H


    • Jon Hamm, American actor[71]
    • Tony Hancock, English actor and comedian[72]
    • Andrew Hansen, Australian comedian (part of The Chaser team)[73]
    • Elizabeth Hartman, American actress[74]
    • Anne Hathaway, American actress[75]
    • Friedrich August Hayek, Austrian economist[76]
    • Ernest Hemingway, American writer[16]
    • Margaux Hemingway, American actress; granddaughter of Ernest Hemingway[77]
    • John Hinckley, Jr., American would-be assassin of Ronald Reagan[78]
    • Sir Julian Huxley, British biologist, author and administrator[79]
    • Geoffrey Hill, English poet[80]
    • Herbert Hart, British philosopher[81]
    • Michael Hutchence, Australian singer–songwriter[82]

    I


    • Natalie Imbruglia, Australian singer-songwriter, actress and model.[83]
    • Jack Irons, American musician, drummer for the bands Eleven, Pearl Jam, and Red Hot Chili Peppers[84]

    J


    • Janet Jackson, American singer[85]
    • Henry James, British writer[86]
    • William James, American philosopher and psychologist[87]
    • Billy Joel, American musician[88]
    • Daniel Johns, Australian musician[89]
    • Samuel Johnson, British lexicographer, biographer, essayist and poet[90]
    • Ashley Judd, American actor[91]
    • Jung Da Bin, Korean actress[92]

    K


    • Sarah Kane, British playwright[93]
    • Hamid Karzai, Afghan President [94]
    • Susanna Kaysen, American writer[95]
    • John Keats, British poet [96]
    • Marian Keyes, Irish writer[97]
    • Kool Keith, American hip hop artist[98]
    • Sřren Kierkegaard, Danish philosopher[99]
    • Ernst Ludwig Kirchner, German painter[100]
    • John Kirwan, New Zealand rugby player, former All Black, currently coach of Japan national rugby team.[101]
    • Beyoncé Knowles, American singer-songwriter[102]
    • Joey Kramer, American musician (Aerosmith)[103]
    • Akira Kurosawa, Japanese film director[104]

    L


    • Alan Ladd, American actor[105]
    • Hugh Laurie, British actor[106]
    • Denis Lawson, British actor[107]
    • Heath Ledger, Australian actor[108]
    • John Lennon, British musician
    • Neil Lennon, Northern Irish footballer[109]
    • David Letterman, American television presenter[110]
    • Meriwether Lewis, American Explorer[111]
    • Abraham Lincoln, American lawyer and politician, 16th President of the United States[112]
    • Oscar Lopez, Chilean-Canadian folk guitarist[113]
    • Federico García Lorca, Spanish poet[114]
    • Martin Luther, German priest and theologian[115]

    M


    • Paul Merton, English comedian[116]
    • Gustav Mahler, German composer[117]
    • Henri Matisse, French painter[118]
    • Vladimir Mayakovsky, Russian writer and poet[119]
    • Brian May, British guitarist[120]
    • Guy de Maupassant, French writer[121]
    • Ewan McGregor, Scottish actor[122]
    • Herman Melville, American writer[123]
    • Charlotte Mew, British poet[124]
    • Michelangelo, Italian painter and sculptor[125]
    • John Stuart Mill, British political philosopher[126]
    • Spike Milligan, Irish comedian and writer[127]
    • Joan Miró, Spanish painter[128]
    • Morrissey, British singer and former frontman of The Smiths[129]
    • Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Austrian composer [96]

    N


    • Isaac Newton, British physicist[130]
    • Friedrich Nietzsche, German philosopher[16]

    O


    • Conan O'Brien, American comedian and television presenter[131]
    • Bill Oddie, British comedy performer and naturalist[132]
    • Eugene O'Neill, American playwright[133]
    • Robert Oppenheimer, American physicist ('father of the atomic bomb')[134]
    • Patton Oswalt, American comedian and actor[135]
    • Marie Osmond, American musician[136]
    • Ronnie O'Sullivan, English snooker player[137]

    P


    • Gwyneth Paltrow, American actress[138]
    • Henri Paul, French chauffeur (driver during the car crash that killed Diana, Princess of Wales)[139]
    • Ryan Phillippe, American actor[140]
    • T. Boone Pickens, Jr., American oil tycoon[141]
    • János Pilinszky, Hungarian poet [142]
    • Sylvia Plath, American writer[16]
    • Edgar Allan Poe, American poet and writer[16] (speculated)
    • Bill Pulsipher, American baseball player [143]
    • Jackson Pollock, American painter[144]
    • Charley Pride, American country music singer.[145]

    R


    • Sergei Rachmaninoff, Russian composer and pianist [146]
    • Charlotte Rampling, English actress[147]
    • Trent Reznor, American musician[148]
    • Anne Rice, American writer[149]
    • Rainer Maria Rilke, Austrian poet[150]
    • John D. Rockefeller, American industrialist[151]
    • Mark Rothko, American painter[152]
    • Hans Rott, Austrian composer[153]
    • J. K. Rowling, British writer[154][155]

    S


    • Jim Salinger, New Zealand climate change scientist[156]
    • Siegfried Sassoon, British poet and soldier[157]
    • Robert Schumann, German composer[158]
    • Jean Seberg, American actress[159]
    • Brian Sewell, English art critic[160]
    • Will Self, English novelist, reviewer and columnist[161]
    • Anne Sexton, American poet[162]
    • Brooke Shields, American actress[163]
    • Sarah Silverman, American comedian[164]
    • Elliott Smith, American musician[165]
    • Britney Spears, American pop singer[166]
    • Layne Staley, American musician.[167]
    • Vivian Stanshall, British humourist and musician (Bonzo Dog Doo-Dah Band)[168]
    • Rod Steiger, American actor[169]
    • William Styron, writer[170]

    T


    • Amy Tan, American writer[171]
    • Catherine Tate, English comedienne and actress[172]
    • James Taylor, American singer-songwriter[173]
    • Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, Russian composer[174]
    • Leo Tolstoy, Russian writer[175]
    • Georg Trakl, Austrian poet[176]
    • Lars Von Trier, Danish film director[177]
    • Mark Twain, American writer[16]
    • Jeff Tweedy, American musician (Wilco)[178]

    V


    • Ville Valo - Finnish singer (HIM)[179]
    • Ned Vizzini - American writer[180]
    • Kurt Vonnegut - American author[181]
    • Joey Votto - Canadian baseball player[182]

    W


    • David Foster Wallace, American writer[183]
    • Mike Wallace, American journalist on 60 Minutes[184]
    • Evelyn Waugh, British novelist and journalist[185]
    • Denise Welch, English actress and television presenter[186]
    • Billy West, American voice artist[187]
    • Delonte West, American basketball player[188]
    • Dan White, American killer of Harvey Milk and George Moscone[189]
    • Walt Whitman, American poet[190]
    • Kevin Whitrick, British electrical engineer[191]
    • Robbie Williams, British pop singer[192]
    • Tennessee Williams, American playwright[193]
    • William Carlos Williams, American poet[194]
    • Brian Wilson, American musician (Beach Boys)[195]
    • Owen Wilson, American comedian and actor[196]
    • Gregory Wilton, Australian politician[197]
    • Hugo Wolf, Austrian composer[198]
    • Lewis Wolpert, British developmental biologist, author and broadcaster[199]
    • Virginia Woolf, Adeline Virginia Stephen, British novelist (1882–1941)[200]
    • Elizabeth Wurtzel, American writer[201]

    Y


    • Thom Yorke, English musician, lead singer of Radiohead [202]

    Z
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  6. #6
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    As for your comment re: The Saint Vincents' Hospital online anxiety order program, might I suggest a little bit of research on your behalf WRT to outcomes the highly credentialled and internationally recognized St Vincents hospital is reporting would add to your understanding
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  7. #7
    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Thanks for the data and input, it is certainly food for thought.
    I still dont agree with you and retospective diagnosis is a wonderful thing but I dont see your point with the long alphabetical listing which includes people from all walks of life?
    Just about any disease known to man could have one of these complied and it is not the disease that we are discussing, but the usefulness of CBT.
    Chronic anxiety or depression are very different to depression or anxiety via the definitions of the DSM - IV - TR which Australia also uses and thus require different modes of healing. St Vincents, I am quite sure a reputable large teaching hospital and it was not that which I questioned, it was instead that your description of the site was they primarily used cbt and the reference used was over a decade old. I found by entering the site and seeing what was offered that this was not their sole or even primary method, maybe it could be clarified if you to look into it further.
    I did.
    let us agree to disagree.
    1) http://www.heartcenteredtherapies.or...0and%20cbt.pdf

    2) Treating the trauma of rape ... - Google Books

    3) COGNITIVE-BEHAVIORAL THERAPY FOR ADULT ANXIETY DISORDERS: A META-ANALYSIS OF RANDOMIZED PLACEBO-CONTROLLED TRIALS

    4) http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18246853

    5) Cognitive–behavioral therapy and hypnotic relaxation to treat sleep problems in an adolescent with diabetes - Perfect - 2010 - Journal of Clinical Psychology - Wiley Online Library

    6)Meditation with yoga, group therapy with hypnosis, and psychoeducation for long-term depressed mood: a randomized pilot trial - Butler - 2008 - Journal of Clinical Psychology - Wiley Online Library

    7)The Oxford handbook of hypnosis ... - Google Books
    8) http://ccs.sagepub.com/content/9/1/53.short

    these are jst a few of the many studies or peer reviewed books that refute your premise that Hypnosis is not recommended in anxiety related illnesses or depression.
    I have tried to make them less than 5 years old and included 3 or 4 that relate directly to anxiety/depression.

    Here are the site options from the St Vincents site you have highlighted:

    There are 3 ways to get help from CRUfADclinic:

    1. Get Self Help
    Find self help information on anxiety and depressive disorders on Crufad.org.
    2. Get a Prescription
    Go to your clinician (eg. GP, Psychologist) and ask them to prescribe you the Internet treatment. For more information, download our letter to your clinician.
    3. Get a Referral
    Go to your clinician (eg. GP, psychologist) and ask to be referred to the Anxiety and Depression Clinic at St Vincent's Hospital in Sydney. For more information click here.

    If neither of these strategies work, click here to contact us, or email to contact@crufadclinic.orgThis e-mail address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it .

    note ...no CBT
    Lastly I did not seek anything but your opinion on cbt v hypnosis which you have kindly given, I did not ask specifically about anxiety or depression or behaviour syndromes; that remains a focus you have chosen and run with and I am happy to explore it... but it is not the core question. We are after all on a social web site and I was wondering what the general public thought of the two methods cbt v hypnosis.
    Hope this helps clarify things.
    Last edited by consolidation; 04-01-2011 at 09:56 AM. Reason: spelling as usual/ esl user strikes again!

  8. #8
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Get a Prescription: Go to your clinician (eg. GP, Psychologist) and ask them to prescribe you an Internet course on www.crufadclinic.org. If your doctor is not a registered prescriber yet, download this instruction letter for your clinician. This letter outlines the steps to register and how to get a prescription for you to use.

    Get a Referral:
    Go to your clinician (eg. GP, Psychologist) and ask them to refer you to the Anxiety Disorders Clinic at St Vincent’s Hospital, Sydney. You will see a specialist at St Vincent’s Hospital in Sydney who will assess whether the Internet courses on CRUfADclinic or face-to-face treatment would be best for you. For more information and to make an appointment see www.adc.crufad.org.
    ___________________________
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  9. #9
    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Ok, I have already presented and explained that?
    It does not represent cbt, it is a mixture of hypnosis, guided imagery( derivative of hypnosis) and cbt.
    it is probably unfair that I can get into the site easily due to my profession but you seem fixed with a particular idea based on a study that has never been peer reviewed?
    In order to help here are a few other peer reviewed documents and books in addition to the ones I have provided earlier.
    Note: The are all from the same year as the single one you provided from the St Vincents Mental Health Unit of 2001 and all recommend hypnotherapy as an adjunct, some go further but that is not the point. One unreviewed study in one country does not make a professional consensus. I hope this is more apparent now.


    Hypnosis and Depression - International Handbook of Clinical Hypnosis - Burrows - Wiley Online Library

    Hypnosis in Chronic Pain Management - International Handbook of Clinical Hypnosis - Evans - Wiley Online Library

    Elsevier

    Elsevier

    The quote I originally provided to the forum and you subsequently highlighted
    "You will see a specialist at St Vincent’s Hospital in Sydney who will assess whether the Internet courses on CRUfADclinic or face-to-face treatment would be best for you"
    Means you will have a consultation with a MD, Psych or nurse practitioner of some sort to establish your health needs,.... not that cbt or any other healing therapy method will be used. It is an investigative assessment that is being offered.

    However I was seeking opinion to try to establish an inkling on why persons such as yourself may be reticent to utilise it as a healing tool, despite its proven efficacy. Cbt has been proven to be 80 odd percent effective during the face to face phase of non organic illnesses only and fails miserably when the treament stops; with huge relapse rates after 1 year.

    here area few studies to back that statement as I know its quite a large one.

    CBT does not improve relapse rates in people with recently relapsed psychosis -- 12 (1): 14 -- Evidence-Based Mental Health

    NHS Evidence - Mental health - Therapeutics - CBT does not improve relapse rates in people with recently relapsed psychosis

    Cambridge Journals Online - Abstract

    http://www-psych.stanford.edu/~pgold...le2000JCCP.pdf

    Relapse Prevention in the Treatment of Depression: Summaries of Clinical Studies

    all of these are credible and support my premise , to be fair I noted that there were 2 that stated the opposite as well, however this thread is about the publics general opinon and their rationale behind it.
    I hope this helps you understand my query.

  10. #10
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Quote Originally Posted by consolidation
    However I was seeking opinion to try to establish an inkling on why persons such as yourself may be reticent to utilise it as a healing tool, despite its proven efficacy.
    No you weren't.

    A healing tool for what ???

    Neither CBT or hypnosis are a healing tool for ingrown toenails, there, does that satisfy your requirements ???

    Cognitive Behaviour Therapy works for SOME people in SOME cases for SOME conditions.

    Cognitive Behaviour Therapy doesn't work for SOME people in SOME cases for SOME conditions.

    Ditto for hypnosis.

    In SOME cases of SOME conditions, hypnosis works as a valuable adjunct to CBT, in others, it simply doesn't.

    In SOME cases, SOME clients achieve a positive outcome reading books, doing workshops or simply gritting their teeth and "getting on with it" and SOME don't.

    My original point remains i.e. the size and diversity of the potential subject pool makes anything but a casual observation impossible.

    Have I seen hypnosis "work" yes

    Have I seen hypnosis "not work" yes

    Ditto for CBT and ditto for a combination of both.

    Further, taking just ONE of the many fields in which CBT and/or hypnosis are used, e.g. that of the treatment of "depression" (which as you point out, is not a single condition, but contains as many potential variants as there are clients) then the number of people presenting with the condition means that expressing a "% success rate" as proof of the efficacy, or otherwise of either, or, indeed any "treatment" is meaningless.

    Even a 90% claimed success rate when your target group numbers in the tens of millions leaves a bloody big "non success" rate.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  11. #11
    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Actually maybe you need to read post 1 again and also note that on many occassions I specified non organic illness...therefore ingrown toenails would be excluded , the use of this as an example is a liitle strange noting we had already acknowledge it should not be used as a therapy for organic illness.

    Your statement that only a casual observation could be given has also been disproven by yourself. You have contributed some great stats on particular areas which are all fodder for thought on the subject in reaching a conclusion for others. Hopefully others will also participate in varied areas and broaden and develop the debate.


    Sorry but you should be careful when assuming to know what people think.
    Lets stick to science here.

    Firstly .... Yes i was.
    Despite your (unfortunately very erroneous) self determined ability to know my thoughts.

    POST 1 ME: "Hi all, I was wondering after seeing both and their effectiveness, in admittedly a limited span of cases, if there is a consensus in the public of which is more valuable.
    Personally I find COGNITIVE BEHAVIOURAL THERAPY pretty limited ( limited to the depth of the clients pocket and actual wish to get better) whereas I have yet to see hypnosis not have a relatively instantaneous positive effect.
    The problematic area seems to be the regulation of the quacks who wish to do an internet course and then call themselves a hypnotherapist.
    I am not sure yet but it seems to be a underutilised tool noting CBT has been proven for decade to be a farce."

    QUOTE 2 ME my last post ; "However I was seeking opinion to try to establish an inkling on why persons such as yourself may be reticent to utilise it as a healing tool, despite its proven efficacy."

    From your last post I am glad to say that we are agreed it seems on the following.
    They both have a place.
    They both have flaws.

    This particular statement of yours in your last post shocked me a bit LRM ; "Even a 90% claimed success rate when your target group numbers in the tens of millions leaves a bloody big "non success" rate." Lets face facts, shall we.....90% efficacy for Hypnosis is a wonderful stat, better than most immunisations, yet you seem dismissive of it? Should we equally dismiss anything with less than 100% efficacy? Admittedly there is room for improvement and reasearch is ongoing to improve both therapy outcomes.

    LRM your thoughts are appreciated. Thanks for your WONDERFUL input and it has certainly highlighted one persons views which is exactly as I asked.
    We have come a long way from your intial staement of hypnosis being contriandicated in anxiety and depression to your last post where both have their places in therapy. Now although it seems clear , would you like to present your bias and noting your prior posts let us make it for any one illness of your choice as you have indicated that you do not wish to generalise on the issue of cbt v clinical hypnosis.

    Hope this helps to clarify things.
    Sleep calls.
    I would be genuinely interested if anyone else has any input or comment on this thread as well as gratefully recieving LRM input.
    Last edited by consolidation; 04-01-2011 at 10:55 PM. Reason: highlighting quotes

  12. #12
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    Quote Originally Posted by consolidation
    "90% efficacy for Hypnosis is a wonderful stat, better than most immunisations, yet you seem dismissive of it? Should we equally dismiss anything with less than 100% efficacy? Admittedly there is room for improvement and reasearch is ongoing to improve both therapy outcomes"
    I have no idea what form of medicine is practiced in the "ED" in which you claim to work, but, if it consists of delivering generalized treatments along the lines of your contention that "hypnosis" is good", then I pity your patients.

    "90% efficacy for Hypnosis is a wonderful stat" is NOT a stat, it's a made up and obviously ridiculous analogy in response to your non specific contention

    IF, and I specify "IF" we were discussing the use of hypnosis and/or CBT in treating a specific condition with a quantifiable number of subjects, THEN we might have the basis for some sort of rational discourse.

    However, discussing conditions in which there are possible catastrophic outcomes of either misdiagnosis or inappropriate treatment i.e.anxiety and/or panic attacks, alcohol and/or substance abuse or "depression" (if there can be a singular condition called "depression") , there is no room for generalization.

    You can continue to generalize and post as many links to as many "studies" as you like, hypnosis as a first line treatment delivered in non secure, as in, "not closely monitored" circumstances to certain "types" of clients with certain conditions is not only liable to be ineffective, but is, in fact, contraindicated.

    "Seem dismissive" ????

    I am in no way "dismissive" in SOME circumstances for SOME patents with SOME conditions by SOME practitioners.

    In other circumstances SOME circumstances for SOME patents with SOME conditions by SOME practitioners, anyone in the position to do so who prescribes hypnosis and/or CBT should have their ass kicked until their nose bleeds.

    What I AM, however, is very careful to not present broad generalizations WRT the efficacy or, indeed, the desirability of a particular form of treatment or therapy to an unknown audience and I DEFINITELY never hint, suggest or allude to having any connection to ANY recognized field of medicine without a full and frank disclosure IOW, I simply don't do it.

    With the greatest respect, using terms such as "working in an ED" or "having connections with an ED" or "in our ED" on a forum dealing primarily with fraud and fraudsters is likely to gain you the same response as waving a red rag in front of a bull.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  13. #13
    consolidation is offline Godwin's is straw
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    wow! you really should gget out more.
    Firstly, I have attempted to be civil througout depsite your obvious ignorance and erroneous postings, I am not sorry that I proved your sources were weak or that your claims were less than perfect.
    I do not know you, but have somehow your conversation style has shown to rudely degrade when people don't immediately agree with your POV ; and you now have openly resorted to using personal attacks and ridiculous claims that are all to easily dismissed.

    I suggest that if you want to get personal go to the "flame out area" and start a thread about me , otherwise this place will quickly degrade to as bad as other forums such as scam.com etc. If you have found some studies that are actually real to post then use them to show the error of my ways. they are your only realistic choices.

    I work were I work and it gives me some visability of this debate but by no means makes me an expert , hence to gain a broader insight I asked for rational input and opinions. Your input was welcome but was found to be wanting in its "facts". You also seem to dlight in inventing questions and then answering them in the negative...in which altered dimension did I say either cbt or hynosis was delivered in an ED, you unfortunately made that up and then proceed to chastise me based on your own inventions.
    here again is what you are commenting on from my second post "CBT is slow and has minimal use and as a SMO or Medical Professional in a ED I see it failing daily with people rlasping and ending up in our department regularly.
    The registered and practicing Psychiatrist's that I have spoken too seem agreed; it is the best and safest that that have, but it is far from perfect and lately many of them and the Psyhologists have been exploring hypnosis referals with encouraging results."
    N
    Note the word referal???? I hope you understand greater now and please at least try not to be deliberately misleading in future.
    I unfortunately pointed this out very carefully for a few posts so you may investigate further but instead you wasted the opportunity to learn and developed into the poster we see in the previous post.
    Please stick to debating the concepts with an open mind or presenting your opinion honestly; but please please dont dress your opinion up as fact and then wonder why you were challenged in a forum about stopping/exposing scams.

    In case your id requires a explosive display in this thread once again, I request that afterwards please let others have their say...its not about you v me ...its about cbt v hypnosis.
    More Sleep time!
    All yours to flame out on!
    I hope we enjoy many more healthy and robust debates.
    Last edited by consolidation; 04-02-2011 at 02:04 AM.

  14. #14
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: clinical hypnosis v cbt

    So, after the straw man diversions,

    "CBT is slow and has minimal use and as a SMO or Medical Professional in a ED I see it failing daily with people rlasping and ending up in our department regularly.
    FOR WHAT ?????

    You see relapses OF WHAT condition/s in which CBT has been tried and "failed"

    Depressive disorders, anxiety disorders, PTSD, OCD, bi polar disorder, psychotic disorders, self harm, suicidal tendencies, eating disorders, behavioural disorders, GAD, adjustment disorders ???

    In people being treated FOR WHAT ???

    "You see it failing DAILY ????

    DAILY ????

    What percentage of the people you see "DAILY" are the result of failed CBT treatment ???? Would you reasonably expect for people for whom CBT or hypnotherapy HAS worked to attend your ED ???

    Were drugs involved, prescribed or illicit ??

    Who assessed them as having a condition suitable for treatment with CBT ???

    Who was monitoring their

    a) compliance b) underlying condition c) standard of their progress ???

    Did or do those presenting have an underlying undiagnosed (or diagnosed) mental illness

    Does your department keep statistics on the number of patients who present on a typical "day" because of the side effects of inappropriately applied/ unsupervised CBT and/or hypnotherapy treatment ???

    This is the treatment of human beings we're talking about, near enough is NOT good enough.

    The variables are infinite.

    Your own thread title is meaningless without major qualification:

    clinical hypnosis v cbt IN WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES ??
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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