Results 1 to 6 of 6
Like Tree4Likes
  • 2 Post By GlimDropper
  • 2 Post By NikSam

Thread: Some Context on the Ukraine

  1. #1
    GlimDropper's Avatar
    GlimDropper is offline Administrator
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,196

    Some Context on the Ukraine

    This is emphatically not a forum to discuss politics so I am coming close to breaking one of the rules I helped make. But it seems to me that few people I've spoken with have any real frame of context for the current situation in the Ukraine. Not all that surprising, I'm not sure that most American's can name both of their state Senators let alone the contemporary history of a country half way around the world. I found a (fairly) short video which addresses many of the relevant historical bullet points in an understandable manner:



    The (very rapid) speaker raises an excellent point near the end. The Ukraine needs independence and stability and enough time to find their own footing. They need to be able to decide for themselves what relationships they want to share with the E.U. and with Russia without having those relationships dictated to them.
    So your prophets of finance have fallen on their collective proverbial face, and you hear muffled voices calling: Welcome to the human race.
    You made a killing dealing real estate at NASA selling cemetery plots in outer space til some falling coffins crashed upon your doorstep: Welcome to the human race.

    Open up your heart...

    Welcome to RealScam.com.

  2. #2
    Blue Wolf's Avatar
    Blue Wolf is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    282

    Re: Some Context on the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by GlimDropper View Post
    This is emphatically not a forum to discuss politics so I am coming close to breaking one of the rules I helped make.
    That might create some problems, but it's your decision.

    As for the video, I wanted to point out something he said at 4:26: "Those protests grew and grew until February 20, when dozens of protesters were killed by military and police, and the next day, Yanukovych disappeared from Kiev."

    He could have mentioned the fact that some of the protesters were shooting and killing police officers, too. They were extremely violent.

    Yanukovych certainly deserves a lot of criticism in all of this, but in his defense, he said that he didn't order his officers to shoot.

    What a mess. Frankly, I don't think it's right that an elected leader was removed from power like that. Hopefully, the next leader of Ukraine won't suffer the same fate.

  3. #3
    NikSam is offline AntiCon Artist
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    2,237

    Re: Some Context on the Ukraine

    Glim, you should not have started it.

    As there are very mixed and polarized views on the topic, as well as biased media propaganda on both ends.

    I agree with Blue Wolf, what western media portrayed as "peacefull protests" was in fact a bloody mess and attacks on police special forces (Berkut) by radical youth.
    For 3 months Berkut guys had to take this shit, being burned, and carry on their responsobilities and were given orders not to respond, some did loose it.
    The use of Force from Berkut side was well justified.
    Do I need to point out what would happen if such violent riots happened in US or UK and will the police hesitate.

    Peaceful protests in Kiev:


    As to who were the snipers on the roofs who seem to shoot people on both ends is still a mystery with alleged link to the new Ukrainian leaders (Estonian Foreign Ministry confirms authenticity of leaked phone call discussing how Kiev snipers who shot protesters were possibly hired by Ukraine's new leaders | Mail Online)

    PS: Now Berkut solders (after being disbanded by the new government) , who only did their duty, have to flee to Crimea to protect their lifes and families.
    Last edited by NikSam; 03-07-2014 at 05:54 AM.

  4. #4
    GlimDropper's Avatar
    GlimDropper is offline Administrator
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,196

    Re: Some Context on the Ukraine

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Wolf View Post
    That might create some problems, but it's your decision.
    Quote Originally Posted by NikSam View Post
    Glim, you should not have started it.

    As there are very mixed and polarized views on the topic, as well as biased media propaganda on both ends.

    You both are, of course correct. If it should prove that this topic can not serve a benign purpose in the context of this forum I will close it and accept responsibility for having started and finished it.

    It is completely proper to point out that there is no monopoly on truth here (or really anywhere). Western news sources have biases and preconceptions and the same is true of the other sides. Of the opinions expressed in the video I posted there really are only two I hold to be more or less self evident. First, Stalin was a catastrophe for the Ukraine and second, the best outcome possible for the Ukraine is the least coercion possible on the Ukraine.

    My father is from there but is in his late 80s and not in the best of health. He really isn't able to keep up with all the news or provide consecutive opinions but I know I have relations there so have concerns. I know better than to think my opinions are informed or more valid than anyone else so I am interested in other opinions. I honestly don't know if it's possible to aggregate information from opposing perspectives without being oppositional. If we can anyone adding to that will have my thanks, this is an area of interest for me that I have little understanding of.

    Seems to me that the Ukraine has been and is once again more or less a political football. Being kicked from one goal to another and like the old saying goes, when elephants fight it's the grass that suffers. This doesn't mean there are no problems of their own making, just that it isn't easy to fix those while being pulled in different directions. Beyond their agricultural resources I've read where new hyrdrofracture drilling technologies may hold the potential to make them perhaps more than energy independent. There are the basic ingredients for prosperity for these people. The more perilous question is stability.




    I do thank you both for your caution here. One common trait of most posters here is that we excel in the art of disagreement. This is why we have no politics forum or discussions, it's simply an area that lends it's self more to being disagreeable than polite disagreement. I also thank you both for adding more perspective, again, this is of personal interest for me. I would like to keep this topic open but will not let it detract from the fundamental mission of this website. But I know there are people here who know things I don't and I am interested.
    So your prophets of finance have fallen on their collective proverbial face, and you hear muffled voices calling: Welcome to the human race.
    You made a killing dealing real estate at NASA selling cemetery plots in outer space til some falling coffins crashed upon your doorstep: Welcome to the human race.

    Open up your heart...

    Welcome to RealScam.com.

  5. #5
    NikSam is offline AntiCon Artist
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    2,237

    Re: Some Context on the Ukraine

    I think most people in west are making a mistake seeing a current Ukraine as one monolithic country.
    Legitimacy of new self-proclaimed government is not recognized by the huge number of citizens.
    And definitely nobody gave them authority to speak on behalf of the whole country, they represent a position of radical western Ukraine.

    Stalin's mistake was perhaps connecting Galicia to the Ukrainian republic in 1939 and later in 1945.
    They were always historically isolated from the rest of the country, have different religion (catholics vs orthodox of the rest of Ukraine),
    expressed hatred towards national minorities, mostly prospered during all wars and cataclysms in the region.
    In 1991 when the Ukraine was formed as a country in its current geographical form, the search for the national pride (disconnected from Russia/Soviet Union)
    started giving more power to the western nationalists, but was bearable for the whole country.
    During Yuschenko presidency (2005-2010) that pro-nationalism escalated (new "history" books in school, language laws, declaring war criminals (as considered by the most) the national heroes, etc.).
    Yuschenko alleged / leaked involvement with CIA and of his wife (US citizen, worked at US state department, an active west-Ukrainian nationalist) also created
    anti-US tendencies across the country.

    The peaceful protest against Yanukovich (last president) was something which generally united all,
    but were taken over by radicals who took over all administrative buildings,
    and put in power their leaders.
    South and East are not defending Yanukovich but refuse to recognize legitimacy of the new government and seeing west support of that new government prefer to be re-united with russia or declare the independence.
    In first days new government outlined the new language reform, plans to join EU and NATO.
    Russia cannot afford its Black sea fleet and ports to slip to NATO and would not like to have NATO at it's border.

    As I see, the unity of Ukraine is only possible if it remains a friend of Russia and there is no point of dividing things,
    If Ukraine goes over to EU/NATO the divide is inevitable and EU will only get western Ukraine or war.
    I prefer that divide happens peaceful way.

    If the conflict escalates it is unclear if Ukrainian army will have an unity and recognize new government as legitimate.
    Police/Berkut is fleeing to Crimea, Ukrainian Navy Admiral switched sides and declared allegiance to Crimean government.
    Several Ukrainian generals were disbanded for refusing to arm new government radical volunteer groups ("Right Sector").


    There are several world powers involved in this mess (and in the past 2005 Orange Revolution)
    and US also fights for it's influence in the region - which explains why media so biased and only shows things they want people to see.

    I grew up in Odessa, I have family and friends all over Ukraine. I saw a lot of friendship being destroyed in the last days because of this bloody mess,
    that is why I prefer not to discuss politics.

  6. #6
    GlimDropper's Avatar
    GlimDropper is offline Administrator
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    1,196

    Re: Some Context on the Ukraine

    Thank you NikSam for your insights and for the perspective you add.

    I had somehow forgotten how very far away from this situation I really am and that my interests while genuine are academic at best. I lost site of the fact that there are some very real and very raw emotions here. I apologize for my lack of sensitivity.

    In that light I do now see that this isn't the appropriate forum for this particular conversation and this thread is closed. Thank you again to Blue Wolf and NikSam for educating me.
    So your prophets of finance have fallen on their collective proverbial face, and you hear muffled voices calling: Welcome to the human race.
    You made a killing dealing real estate at NASA selling cemetery plots in outer space til some falling coffins crashed upon your doorstep: Welcome to the human race.

    Open up your heart...

    Welcome to RealScam.com.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Disclaimer: Opinions expressed on this website are solely those of their respective authors.

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42