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Thread: Herbalife

  1. #26
    kschang is offline Senior Scambuster
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    Re: Herbalife

    FTC now says the redactions are due to privacy and foreign investigations, not their own investigations.
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  2. #27
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by scratchycat View Post
    Over 25% of Distributors reach the rank of Supervisor and above (“Leader”), qualifying them for additional compensation which is paid by Herbalife based upon their activities and those they have sponsored directly and indirectly. The annual gross compensation paid by Herbalife to all Leaders during 2011 averaged $2,900 (with a median level of $741). Over 39% of Supervisors are “Active” (defined as those who generated at least 2,500 points of volume in 2011 after becoming Supervisor). The annual gross compensation paid by Herbalife to Active Leaders during 2011 averaged $7,354 (with a median level of $637).

    http://opportunity.herbalife.com/Con...tion2011EN.pdf

    Those Distributors are helping make the top players rich, isn't that how a Pyramid works??
    Okay, so some of you don't look at Herbalife as a pyramid. Fine, however if it is not a MLM then I don't suppose I know what Multi-Level Marketing is. At least for now some countries like Belgium have ruled it out. This was reported about 2 hours ago:

    Shares of the nutritional supplement company are down 20 percent since the hedge fund managers duked it out by telephone on cable television station CNBC on Jan 25., exchanging barbs about Ackman's bold $1 billion bet that Herbalife is an unsustainable pyramid scheme destined to collapse.

    But a big concern for investors in Ackman's $12 billion Pershing Square Capital Management is whether Icahn, who boldly predicted Ackman will get caught in the "mother of all short squeezes," will have the last laugh in this battle of hedge fund titans.


    Analysis: Ackman can withstand a short squeeze rally in Herbalife | Reuters

    Joanne Clare The 38-year-old Staten Island mother of three has been selling the company's weight-loss products and supplements since 2004, when she says they helped her drop from 210 to 160 pounds in four months. She now sells as much as $3,500 a month of Herbalife products to her 30 clients and the two distributors in her "down line."

    "People have always said it's a pyramid scheme, but it's not," Ms. Clare said, adding that the bulk of her earnings come from sales to clients, not her cut of her recruits' take.

    Herbalife Proponents Stick by the Company - WSJ.com

    Does anyone have any proof that this statement is a real statement from a person named Joanne Clare? I found a Joanne Clare in Staten Island, NY and she is a realtor.

    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Joann...368977?sk=info

    There must be many others but has anyone actually found this person and get a live statement from her? Now, they mention another name Chad Hacker who supposedly has a business by the name of HealthNutz (quote from same link)
    Chad Hacker has been an Herbalife distributor since 2000. The 35-year-old said he first started selling the product in college by holding Herbalife parties. In 2008, he went retail and opened a storefront called HealthNutz in Owatonna, Minn.

    He gets 35 to 40 visitors a day at the store, which sells a daily pass for $6.50 that gives buyers access to Wi-Fi, a workout room and three free Herbalife products, like the company's Formula 1 meal-replacement shake, an energy tea or an aloe drink. He also uses the store to persuade dabblers to start ordering Herbalife products more regularly and to recruit people into his network of sellers.

    Mr. Hacker's "down line" is now 1,000 people deep and accounts for about half of his $10,000- to $13,000-a-month in profit, he said. He acknowledges most of his recruits make no sales of their own.

    "Of the people with distributorships, only a small fraction of them sell the product," he said. But echoing a common Herbalife assertion, he said 80% of the people in his down line became distributors only to get discounts on the products they consume themselves.

    Mr. Hacker said he glanced through the slides in Mr. Ackman's presentation, but doesn't think they reflect the reality at the company.

    "When companies are growing and having success, people try and take them down," he said. "It's business as usual."

    I found it also strange by searching the name Chad Hacker, Owatonna, MN, I found this link:

    Chad Hacker | Owatonna Real Estate Agent | Coldwell Banker

    These were just short searches and I am sure some of you have much more knowledge about the authenticity of Herbalife than I do. I am just a person who once sold the product. While I do think some of the products are healthy, there are many flaws in the system. I wonder if the FDA or Medical Association were to get in on research of the products what would happen. If customers of these products are on other prescription medications, they should always check with their doctor before taking the supplements. The Herbalife system is prescribing medication and their sales reps are practicing medicine without a license. As I have stated in here earlier, this happened in my case and a good friend wound up in the hospital after taking some of the pills. At that point, I could no longer feel comfortable with selling the products and I would only do so by STRONGLY advising they consult their doctor before taking any of the pills.

    As with many testimonials made by companies in regards to their products, it is best to question if these are in actuality, real statements made by real people.
    Don't get ripped off!! Stay informed!

  3. #28
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    Re: Herbalife

    I had multiple entries on Herbalife on my blog. Basically, the company don't WANT to know how much retail it really does. According to them (in the 10-K statements) they are "not pertinent".
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  4. #29
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by kschang View Post
    No, I'm saying "presence of low-level serfs making the cream of the crop rich" is not in itself 'sign of foul play'. Legitimate businesses can do that too. Jeff Bezos have thousands of Amazon serfs, for example.
    The "serfs" at Amazon aren't paying Bezos to go to work every day. It's not the same as them having to buy a shelf full of books and only getting paid when they sell them.

  5. #30
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    The "serfs" at Amazon aren't paying Bezos to go to work every day. It's not the same as them having to buy a shelf full of books and only getting paid when they sell them.
    The structure of Amazon doesn't even remotely resemble an MLM. The have affiliates, yes, but they also have private sellers, (of which I am one) that list their products for sale and pay a small commission when sold.Then there are "pro" sellers, that pay a $39.99 a months fee. This makes sense if you make more than 40 sales per month. There is also the case where if I have a web site, I can have Amazon products listed on it and I would get a commission if the products sell through my link.
    It seems like in this "industry" common sense is not all that common!

  6. #31
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    Re: Herbalife

    I agree with both of you. Amazon is definitely a different structure than Herbalife and I can say this having been involved in both. It does not cost me anything to list a product for sale on Amazon but yes they get a percentage of what is sold. The same with all the other shops I have that sell my products. After all there is a production expense and as middle person my fee is very low. However, they are products I am proud to sell not some high-priced vitamin pills that have not been proven safe.

    Herbalife is all about making money for top players and using the serfs to do it for them. That is my opinion and I am entitled to my opinion.
    Don't get ripped off!! Stay informed!

  7. #32
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    Re: Herbalife

    Herbalife

    I found this story fascinating.
    Death and Denial at Herbalife

    We have discussed before how a MLM can cultivate multiple cults of personality through its structure of giving "sales leaders" a lot of power and recognition, mainly through his or her group of downlines. And once the cult started, it is self-reinforcing and self-perpetuating.
    A MLM Skeptic: Who's Rick Ross and What Does He Have to Say About Herbalife?

    What I cannot understand is the defense of this company. Maybe I am missing something here.
    Don't get ripped off!! Stay informed!

  8. #33
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    Re: Herbalife

    Interesting:

    • April 9, 2013, 9:50 AM

    Herbalife Shares Halted; Report Points to KPMG Resignation


    By Steven Russolillo

    Herbalife HLF 0.00% shares are halted minutes after the opening bell due to news pending. It’s unclear exactly what is prompting the halt at the moment.


    The nutritional-supplements maker has been embroiled in a bitter fight among hedge-fund manager Bill Ackman — who is shorting the stock, has called the company an illegal pyramid scheme and has said the stock should go to zero — and Daniel Loeb and Carl Icahn, who have taken big bets that Herbalife will prevail and the stock will rise.


    Representatives for Los-Angeles-based Herbalife weren’t immediately available for comment.

    [Link to the rest of the article]

    Looks like some shenanigans with their accounting firm. Not sure why that would cause a halt in trading, I suppose we'll find out soon.


    On Edit:


    Herbalife has issued a statement:

    LOS ANGELES–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Herbalife (NYSE: HLF) today announced that KPMG LLP notified Herbalife on April 8, 2013 that KPMG was resigning, effective immediately, as Herbalife’s independent accountant. KPMG stated it had concluded it was not independent because of alleged insider trading in Herbalife’s securities by one of KPMG’s former partners who, until April 5, 2013, was the KPMG engagement partner on Herbalife’s audit. KPMG advised the Company it resigned as Herbalife’s independent accountant solely due to the impairment of KPMG’s independence resulting from its now former partner’s alleged unlawful activities and not for any reason related to Herbalife’s financial statements, its accounting practices, the integrity of Herbalife’s management or for any other reason.


    None of KPMG’s audit reports on Herbalife’s financial statements for the fiscal years ended December 31, 2010, 2011 and 2012 or KPMG’s audit reports on the effectiveness of internal control over financial reporting as of December 31, 2010, 2011 and 2012 contained an adverse opinion or a disclaimer of opinion, nor was any such report qualified or modified as to uncertainty, audit scope or accounting principles. In addition, at no point during the three fiscal years ended December 31, 2012 and the subsequent interim period through April 8, 2013 were there any (1) disagreements with KPMG on any matter of accounting principles or practices, financial statement disclosure or auditing scope or procedures, which disagreement(s), if not resolved to the satisfaction of KPMG, would have caused it to make reference to the subject matter of the disagreement(s) in connection with its reports, or (2) “reportable events” as such term is defined in Item 304(a)(1)(v) of Regulation S-K.


    As a result of the alleged insider trading activity by its now former partner and KPMG’s resulting resignation on April 8, 2013, KPMG notified Herbalife that KPMG’s independence had been impaired and it had no option but to withdraw its audit reports on Herbalife’s financial statements for the fiscal years ended December 31, 2010, 2011 and 2012 and the effectiveness of internal control over financial reporting as of December 31, 2010, 2011 and 2012 and that such reports should no longer be relied upon as a result of KPMG’s lack of independence created by the circumstances described above. Herbalife’s Audit Committee and management continue to believe that the Company’s financial statements covering the referenced periods fairly present, in all material respects, the financial condition and results of operations of the Company as of the end of and for the referenced periods and may continue to be relied upon and that the Company’s internal control over financial reporting was effective during these periods.


    As a result of the matters described above, Herbalife will be withdrawing the proposal to ratify the appointment of KPMG as Herbalife’s independent registered public accountants for fiscal 2013 originally planned to be submitted to Herbalife’s shareholders at Herbalife’s Annual General Meeting of Shareholders to be held on April 25, 2013.
    Last edited by GlimDropper; 04-09-2013 at 10:27 AM.
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  9. #34
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    Re: Herbalife

    "LOS ANGELES–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Herbalife (NYSE: HLF) today announced that KPMG LLP notified Herbalife on April 8, 2013 that KPMG was resigning, effective immediately, as Herbalife’s independent accountant. KPMG stated it had concluded it was not independent"

    I am not sure what the function of the big "independent" audit firms truly is. I know what it is supposed to be, but I can't ever remember one that uncovered a major fraud before it had grown out of control. From The Salad Oil Scandal, and ZZZZBest, to Crazy Eddie and Enron these firms seem more concerned with billable hours than actual auditing. By the time they step down it is usually too late, and the reason never seems to be "our audit technique" uncovered a massive fraud.

    From the news the KPMG auditor stepped down due to leaks that led to insider trading, he should be in congress. I doubt there are many accounting shenanigans going on at Herbalife unless they are exceptionally greedy and stupid. They have a cash cow just recruiting folks and having them stock their woodsheds with protein shakes, why mess that up playing games with the financials? But if they are not able to get a new auditor to review and issue an Unqualified Opinion on the books, look out below.
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  10. #35
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    Re: Herbalife

    Let's start with an important truth, it very much looks like none of the news leading to today's 3.75% drop in stock price was Herbalife's fault.

    OK, KPMG, one of the "big four" accounting firms fires the accountant who was in charge of the auditing the financial data for both Herbalife and the shoe company Skechers because he's accused of passing inside information to at least one investor. The Chicago Tribune is reporting that this person (elsewhere identified as Scott London) is being investigated by the FBI. KPMG goes one step farther by retracting their endorsment for the last three years of Herbalife's financial statements. It could be that KPMG, who has faced regulatory issues in the recent past is going above and beyond in distancing themselves from any apparent lack of independence in those audits. This doesn't necessarily mean they distrust the information in those statements.

    KPMG's actions here are going to cost them and potentially Herbalife a lot of money. First of all they will almost certainly be the ones paying for another firm to reaudit the financials for the last three years but they could quite possibly be facing suit from Herbalife for damages. What damages? Even while acknowledging this situation is not of Herbalife's making, one formerly bullish stock annalist has sharply lowered his price target for HLF:

    DA Davidson analyst Timothy Ramey said he downgraded Herbalife shares to neutral from buy and slashed his price target to $38 from $78 after the accounting firm resigned as Herbalife’s auditor following allegations of insider trading. His cautious views stem from concerns related to the company’s compliance with NYSE requirements and a potential breach of their loan covenants, which could sway the stock, rather than a fundamental shift in how he views the company.

    [Snip]

    Ramey makes three assumptions about Herbalife in wake of the KPMG resignation:

    • Herbalife could get an NYSE de-listing notice, although Ramey says it’s “highly unlikely” Herbalife would actually be de-listed.
    • Herbalife could violate its loan covenants, although the company may get a covenant waiver due to the unusual circumstances.
    • Herbalife may be unable to buy back stock during this period, Ramey said. “Doing so would be imprudent given the potential lack of financial liquidity,” he said.
    Elsewhere the Wall Street Journal comments that HLF's next auditing firm will be "walking into a warzone":

    MarketBeat: What’s your broad takeaway of the situation?


    (James) Angel: ”What I find interesting is the stock price reaction. Skechers has gone up and Herbalife has gone down. Two companies in a very similar situation where they basically have just been screwed by their accountants and yet their stock prices react in two different ways. It could have something to do with the mood of the market, that with a stock as volatile as Herbalife where you have huge differences of opinion, it doesn’t take much to move the dial one way or another. With a company like Skechers, you’re more than likely to take their press release at face value and say, ‘hey, it really is all the auditor’s fault, there’s nothing wrong with the company and oh by the way, sales are going to be great,’ which is kind of what they said in their press release. On the other hand with Herbalife, given that there’s this sort of aura of sleaziness around the company, having the auditors not only quit, but withdraw their signatures from the last two years of statements, woah. You wonder what has not yet been revealed.”
    CNBC weighed in on the original insider trading angle (which HLF is blameless in) by calling it "The Dumbest Insider Trading Scheme yet Alleged":

    Is any company traded on U.S. markets more likely to be scrutinized by regulators?Herbalife has been accused of being a Ponzi scheme by Bill Ackman. Billionaire investors Dan Loeb and Carl Icahn have been publicly criticizing Ackman's trade. Federal authorities are watching this fight and Herbalife very closely.


    Which means that anyone engaging in insider trading in Herbalife would be attempting to illegally profit right under the noses of the authorities. It's a bit like trying to rob the cash register of a bodega being raided by the police for being a drug-running front. It should at least occur to you to maybe pick another target.
    It's been a bizarre day indeed, and perhaps the only day in the last 15 to 20 years that Mark Seyforth doesn't regret leaving Herbalife.
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  11. #36
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    Re: Herbalife

    I am not sure what the function of the big "independent" audit firms truly is. I know what it is supposed to be, but I can't ever remember one that uncovered a major fraud before it had grown out of control. From The Salad Oil Scandal, and ZZZZBest, to Crazy Eddie and Enron these firms seem more concerned with billable hours than actual auditing. By the time they step down it is usually too late, and the reason never seems to be "our audit technique" uncovered a massive fraud.
    Yes, those are glaring examples, but in fairness to my old profession, the "scandals" don't happen in the first place at places where the audit work is good (and usually where the consulting work is another firm).
    I am most familiar with Enron, where they played way too loose with standards to begin with and as Enron evolved in to less accounting tricks and more outright fraud, Enron bullied Andersen into opinions farther and farther from economic reality over a period of years. Their "legitimate" accounting was shaky enough but when the adventures of Andy Fastow (the real villain in that company) became too obvious to hide, they had a run on the bank and whaddaya know, the bank was full of "accounting profits" but no "cash".

  12. #37
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    Yes, those are glaring examples, but in fairness to my old profession, the "scandals" don't happen in the first place at places where the audit work is good (and usually where the consulting work is another firm).
    I am most familiar with Enron, where they played way too loose with standards to begin with and as Enron evolved in to less accounting tricks and more outright fraud, Enron bullied Andersen into opinions farther and farther from economic reality over a period of years. Their "legitimate" accounting was shaky enough but when the adventures of Andy Fastow (the real villain in that company) became too obvious to hide, they had a run on the bank and whaddaya know, the bank was full of "accounting profits" but no "cash".
    You bring up a valid point in that a good audit can detect and even scare away potential fraudsters. And certainly in today's world if someone is caught red handed the company may have them "spend more time with family" than make a big production if they were anywhere near the C Suite. Most of my time was on the consulting side, but I have been on a few audits back when it was Big 6. My observation and would even say criticism of that world is that many firms use staff right out of college to do a lot of the work. Irregularities could get missed that a more experienced auditor might have detected. But they still charge as if the client is getting an auditor with years under their belt.
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  13. #38
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by Gregg View Post
    Yes, those are glaring examples, but in fairness to my old profession, the "scandals" don't happen in the first place at places where the audit work is good (and usually where the consulting work is another firm).
    I am most familiar with Enron, where they played way too loose with standards to begin with and as Enron evolved in to less accounting tricks and more outright fraud, Enron bullied Andersen into opinions farther and farther from economic reality over a period of years. Their "legitimate" accounting was shaky enough but when the adventures of Andy Fastow (the real villain in that company) became too obvious to hide, they had a run on the bank and whaddaya know, the bank was full of "accounting profits" but no "cash".
    Is there any truth to the rumor that there is only one question on the Anderson auditors final exam? Q: What is 1+1? Ans: What would you like it to be?
    It seems like in this "industry" common sense is not all that common!

  14. #39
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by Soapboxmom View Post
    Quatloos! • View topic - Herbalife Convicted For Pyramid Selling In Belgium

    The most amusing part of this whole sordid saga is Clements rant about it:
    Lenny is obviously confused at to how a customer should be defined. A customer / end user buys a product for personal use and not because it is required to participate in the pyramid pay scheme.

    His comparison to franchises like McDlonald's is glaringly ignorant. Those that purchase a franchise have a restaurant that sells only to customers. They do not endlessly recruit other franchisees into the mix. Perhaps Lenny would like to give us the customer to franchisee ratio for McDonald's. I would bet there is more than a fraction of a customer or a handful of customers per franchisee.

    Kudos to Belgium for chasing these MLM varmits out!

    Soapboxmom
    Most of the hardcore MLMer's seem to think that a retail sale is to someone who uses the product. Thus if an IBO buys and consumes the product, then that is a retail sale. From my understanding on pyramid laws, that is not okay as the only way to profit in an MLM then is to continually recruit, which eventually becomes unsustainable. I know some Amway folks used to (probably still do) teach buy from yourself, selling is optional.

    And to add to the McDonald's comparison, McDonald's employees don't pay to eat. They get freebies as a benefit for working there.

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    Re: Herbalife

    Webster vs. Omnitrition already clarified that: ultimate consumer cannot be inside the company and eligible for the comp plan.

    The court stated that sales to persons who are participants in the company's compensation program do not qualify as "retail sales" for purposes of satisfying the Koscot test. This interpretation of the Koscot test precludes companies from paying commissions on products sold to distributors for personal consumption.
    The Personal Consumption Dilemma - MLM Attorney Newsletter from Lawyer Grimes & Reese - MLM Attorney Specializing in Multilevel Marketing Law

    DSA managed to get a couple states to legalize this "personal consumption" in MLM, but it's "mostly illegal".
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    Re: Herbalife

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

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    Re: Herbalife

    If someone is looking into an answer if herbalife is a scam or not, please watch this 3 hours of bitch-slapping by Bill Ackman

    CLICK on "Watch Webcast Now" at Facts About Herbalife: The Truth About the HLF Pyramid Scheme

    First 20 mins convinced even my cat.

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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by NikSam View Post
    If someone is looking into an answer if herbalife is a scam or not, please watch this 3 hours of bitch-slapping by Bill Ackman

    CLICK on "Watch Webcast Now" at Facts About Herbalife: The Truth About the HLF Pyramid Scheme

    First 20 mins convinced even my cat.
    I have 2 friends that started with Herbalife in the last 3 years and they are both making more than $4,000 a month and one of them is making around $30,000 a month. Ask yourself if that is possible for my friends to do and they did it fair and square. How is Herbalife a scam?

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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by justlogicnohate View Post
    I have 2 friends that started with Herbalife in the last 3 years and they are both making more than $4,000 a month and one of them is making around $30,000 a month. Ask yourself if that is possible for my friends to do and they did it fair and square. How is Herbalife a scam?
    If it is so fabulous are you in it???

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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by justlogicnohate View Post
    I have 2 friends that started with Herbalife in the last 3 years and they are both making more than $4,000 a month and one of them is making around $30,000 a month. Ask yourself if that is possible for my friends to do and they did it fair and square. How is Herbalife a scam?

    They not making money , but ripping off others. big difference.

    Herbalife has no retail sales, but fakes financial reports that they do. It is too much to hope for, but when this scam is shutdown,
    there should be a receivership to collect ill gotten gains and distribute to victims.

  21. #46
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by NikSam View Post
    They not making money , but ripping off others. big difference.

    Herbalife has no retail sales, but fakes financial reports that they do. It is too much to hope for, but when this scam is shutdown,
    there should be a receivership to collect ill gotten gains and distribute to victims.
    Amen.

    Since only the 194 reps at the top of the pyramid made $250,000 + a year your friend has to be one of those top 194 earners since they are pulling in $360,000.00 a year. Let's have the name. Someone that successful must have quite a presence online and shouldn't mind you sharing their incredible success story.

    And, again are you in their downline raking it in?


  22. #47
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by justlogicnohate View Post
    I have 2 friends that started with Herbalife in the last 3 years and they are both making more than $4,000 a month and one of them is making around $30,000 a month. Ask yourself if that is possible for my friends to do and they did it fair and square. How is Herbalife a scam?
    Make $4000... or making $4000 in sales? HUGE difference. One's profit, one's revenue (which is very misleading as in MLM you have to pay all of your own expenses, esp. promotions).

    Right now, I wonder if you equivocated intentionally, or merely had a Freudian slip. Your next post should tell me if you're sincere or trolling. Mark your words very carefully. :)
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  23. #48
    kschang is offline Senior Scambuster
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    Re: Herbalife

    People need to read my little essay: What is a Product Based Pyramid Scheme? Is Herbalife a Product Based Pyramid Scheme?

    A MLM Skeptic: What is a Product Based Pyramid Scheme? Is Herbalife a Product Based Pyramid Scheme?

    The MLM industry basically is refused to see the elephant in the room: product based pyramid scheme, which on the surface is indistinguishable from MLM (and indeed, many of established MLMs are effectively PBPSs)

    Yes, I'm probably "splitting hair", but that's not really important, is it? The fact is herbalife CANNOT (and WILL NOT) prove it is NOT a PBPS. Is it afraid of what it will find?
    ---
    A MLM Skeptic (not a Cynic) covering scams, critical thinking, and psychology
    http://amlmskeptic.blogspot.com

  24. #49
    Soapboxmom's Avatar
    Soapboxmom is online now Administrator
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    Re: Herbalife

    justlogicnohate or us that justbsnofacts, has not responded to our questions. If his friend is in fact in the top echelon, the elite top 194 reps, why is that name a secret? Why is this clown not affirming he is in the downline of his brilliant pocket-emptying friend. Who would pass up the chance to come in under a top earner if MLM is so great???

  25. #50
    Luzer is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    Re: Herbalife

    Quote Originally Posted by Soapboxmom View Post
    justlogicnohate or us that justbsnofacts, has not responded to our questions. If his friend is in fact in the top echelon, the elite top 194 reps, why is that name a secret? Why is this clown not affirming he is in the downline of his brilliant pocket-emptying friend. Who would pass up the chance to come in under a top earner if MLM is so great???
    Maybe he made it up? Even if his friend made big money, that says nothing for the thousands and thousands of downline being scammed of their hard earned money. I wish the FTC had taken a good look at Herbalife after Ackman went on the offensive. Instead, Ackman is losing big money now.

    I also hate that Herbalife and others get a pass because they created their system based on the 1979 Amway FTC ruling. That ruling should be re-examined thoroughly but due to lobbying and key politician's protections, it looks like it will never happen.

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