Thread: Banners Broker HYIP ponzi scam

Originally Posted by Brenda

...
On a separate issue, does anyone think that Driscoll expected this to go this big when he first started out on this journey? Does he not in a way implicate himself as a recruiter? Is he not part of the reason BB got as big as it did?

Yes, Ian expected it to go the way he does not want to. That is why he opened the liquidation to every victim. He estimated the outcome if he files as the only creditor with millions (of virtual / illegal gains) it might back fire and he needed the mass claims. At this point he already made a lot of money on BB, and trying to get couple mills more, if not – well, he tried. But he probably did not think it might lead to the future clawbacks.

On the other hand, we do not know what kind of deal Ian signed with liquidators, after all he is the one who hired them.

Originally Posted by NikSam

On the other hand, we do not know what kind of deal Ian signed with liquidators, after all he is the one who hired them.

All the criminal side stuff will supercede anything involving the liquidation.

Some of the plaintiffs in the liquidation seem to think they are still getting millions.
In reality, even 5 cents on the dollar of seed $ only would be a bonus.

Originally Posted by NikSam

On the other hand, we do not know what kind of deal Ian signed with liquidators, after all he is the one who hired them.

Under UK law the liquidators can't favour one party over another. Quite often a liquidation doesn't go the way the people who started it want.

Thinking of poor old Mr Sherriff and how little he made- has anyone asked him if he was also on a salary for running the forum and helping to mislead thousands?

Originally Posted by Della Cate

Anyone remember our old friend, Nigel Albright? Up until yesterday, his website was still there, promoting a link to BB - although the link was only to the "Temporarily Closed" BB website.

Now, today, anyone looking for his website is confronted with this:-
Attachment 8548
Maybe he has at last thrown the towel in on BB. Mind you, he is now pushing Leafit (formerly VLEAF, so I believe) over on Pinterest; so he too has moved on to the next "big" thing. Have to admire his persistence, he does keep on trying. Wonder how much he lost on BB? The last he said on his site was that he had put in about £1,200, but only withdrawn $50 (in the days when people still could get money out - i.e. pre 2013) So not that great a move, eh?

I'd like to say "better luck next time" but I really don't wish luck in these ventures to people who don't seem to learn from their mistakes.

Leafit? Leave it.

DUTY TO PROVIDE ACCESS AND CO-OPERATION TO THE RECEIVER
http://www.spergel.ca/corporate/reso...20Order%29.pdf
Orders under 4 (v) "Any other entity"

5.
THIS COURT ORDERS that all persons having notice of this Order advise the Receiver of the existence
of any books, documents, securities, contracts, orders,corporate and accounting records, and any other papers, records
and information of any kind related to the business or affairs of the Associated Corporations, and any computer programs, computer tapes, computer disks, servers, electronic backups, or other data storage media containing any such information (the foregoing, collectively, "Records") in their possession or control in relation to the Associated
Corporations and shall provide to the Receiver or permit the Receiver to make, retain and take away copies thereof
and grant to the Receiver unfettered access to and use of accounting, computer, software and physical facilities relating
thereto [/quote]

Does this not mean that "other enties" who have a presence in Canada e.g. Linkedin and Facebook and other social networks have to give the receiver details of all their groups which support or publicise Banners Broker as a business and give the identities of all the group admins and managers and group members to the receiver?

I wonder if anyone has brought htis to the attention of the receiver since groups still exist promoting BB and the serial l ponzi pimps are running them . even the ones that are not active should be given over to the receiver and you will no doubt find a long list of current ponzi pimps currently operating on other schemes but certainly involved in pimping BB. Facebook and Linkedin have this information. Indeed the groups still exist even if some are members only or locked.

That's why Iain Sherriff closed his rubbish forum today.He has red the same and thinks doing so he could delete the past...no way Iain,you can't run away from what you did and you did lot of bullshit.

Originally Posted by Beacon

DUTY TO PROVIDE ACCESS AND CO-OPERATION TO THE RECEIVER
http://www.spergel.ca/corporate/reso...20Order%29.pdf
Orders under 4 (v) "Any other entity"

5.
THIS COURT ORDERS that all persons having notice of this Order advise the Receiver of the existence
of any books, documents, securities, contracts, orders,corporate and accounting records, and any other papers, records
and information of any kind related to the business or affairs of the Associated Corporations, and any computer programs, computer tapes, computer disks, servers, electronic backups, or other data storage media containing any such information (the foregoing, collectively, "Records") in their possession or control in relation to the Associated
Corporations and shall provide to the Receiver or permit the Receiver to make, retain and take away copies thereof
and grant to the Receiver unfettered access to and use of accounting, computer, software and physical facilities relating
thereto

Does this not mean that "other enties" who have a presence in Canada e.g. Linkedin and Facebook and other social networks have to give the receiver details of all their groups which support or publicise Banners Broker as a business and give the identities of all the group admins and managers and group members to the receiver?

I wonder if anyone has brought htis to the attention of the receiver since groups still exist promoting BB and the serial l ponzi pimps are running them . even the ones that are not active should be given over to the receiver and you will no doubt find a long list of current ponzi pimps currently operating on other schemes but certainly involved in pimping BB. Facebook and Linkedin have this information. Indeed the groups still exist even if some are members only or locked.[/QUOTE]


To simplify, we listened to weekly webinars or transcripts of webinars, which must be held somewhere on someone's dashboard ( Tara Talks may even have them) of Smith's own voice, consistently relaying the same messages

BB is a real company
we are here for the long term
payments are in the process of going out ( bank statement analysis would confirm this was not true)
complex nonsense terminology without meaning or substance to keep the scam going from week to week
promises of newer improved systems to support BB business growth
consistent promise breaking on payment deadlines
discussions on compliance to affiliates when there was nothing compliant about BB
statements made regarding the collection of fees and charges
fraudulent car draw announcements, in fact fraudulent fee collecting / panel buying promises to for personal gain of BB top staff
world tour recruitment drives and associated bullshit

the list of lies are endless and plentiful based on the recordings of those webinars alone. So much so, given that we now know that the big players used their real names, that one has to wonder, how did they think they could get away with this? In the name of insanity, how much does one need to incriminate oneself, so blatantly, so regularly, so wonderfully in a world where the internet footprint is impossible to erase?

The evidence is right there, given to the investigators, by the criminals, on a plate!

Funny isn't it....as you wrote - on a plate.We have a say - 10 times spoken lie becomes "truth"...well..a sort of...just look how much energy BB leaders spent to convince audience that BB is company with real product and with big real partners.Just look what a construction (panels,traffic earning,blind network,stupid hits coming from other affiliates etc.) they built to convince people there is a work to be done to earn money.
They did this propaganda so good and so consistently that even they started to believe they are here for a long time doing a "clean" and "legal " work.They knew of course what a monster is hidden behind all the "happy" faces but I do believe even they believed that the system can be defended with its quasi legal face on the surface.Do we have a product?- yes we do (they said).Do we have to work? - Yes we do - they repeated it 100 times and believed they do a real business.
It's not unusual that criminals take ,or try the rubbish look like a real thing, legal form to push dirty staff but more it looks like real more they believe IT IS = it could work as real, and show themselves in publick with real names and photos

Originally Posted by Brenda

..... So much so, given that we now know that the big players used their real names, that one has to wonder, how did they think they could get away with this? In the name of insanity...

They still have chance to run away to a place where Canada or UK cannot touch them, they not being charged , and not gonna be for some time.
At the end, the money they got is worth it, it is even worth doing few years in a canadian jail.

Originally Posted by NikSam

They still have chance to run away to a place where Canada or UK cannot touch them, they not being charged , and not gonna be for some time.
At the end, the money they got is worth it, it is even worth doing few years in a canadian jail.

I am assuming that they can now only run with money squirreled away? Isn't it a case that the funds discussed in the legal documents are frozen by officials pending completion of the investigation? As I read it, even property that was allegedly up for sale has had a freeze order placed on it. As Canadian citizens, they are subjected to the visa systems/ restrictions of other countries. Those countries who are out of the visa system for non residents may not be the most desired locations to be ' on the run'.

Originally Posted by Brenda

I am assuming that they can now only run with money squirreled away? Isn't it a case that the funds discussed in the legal documents are frozen by officials pending completion of the investigation? As I read it, even property that was allegedly up for sale has had a freeze order placed on it. As Canadian citizens, they are subjected to the visa systems/ restrictions of other countries. Those countries who are out of the visa system for non residents may not be the most desired locations to be ' on the run'.

This is true. Also suppose they do fee and abandon family and friends and do hove off some money. they would possibly live a "Ronnie Biggs" lifestyle. But they could not then re enter the same type of scam as both they would be easily identifiable and they would also be fugitives in UK Canada Ireland India etc, and any other jurisdiction from which they might be extradited. Probably better to cough up and do the time. Assuming they dont get 100 years or similar which they might get in the USA.

Originally Posted by Brenda

I am assuming that they can now only run with money squirreled away? Isn't it a case that the funds discussed in the legal documents are frozen by officials pending completion of the investigation? As I read it, even property that was allegedly up for sale has had a freeze order placed on it. As Canadian citizens, they are subjected to the visa systems/ restrictions of other countries. Those countries who are out of the visa system for non residents may not be the most desired locations to be ' on the run'.

Of course they have way more offshore bank accounts nobody knows about. It would be naive to assume that they who dealt primary with shady money launderers (Vector,AP/Payza,STP,WeW), have multiple offshore corporations to have only one offshore bank account. Isle of Man bank account was a mistake, because a serious crook would not have a corporation and a bank in same jurisdiction. There are definitely accounts in Belize (they had to pay there alot including a senator, flashing a canadian or IoM bank there is dumb), who or on which corporation those accounts are might be never determined. And if I was a Chris I would definitely open an account in Trinidad and Tobago while I am physically there. How many rainy days do you think he was planning for ?

As on crossing borders, it never stopped P2P Nick Smirnov to leave Canada and disappear, or 115 canadians now wanted by interpol.

I interviewed some serial fraudsters, they hid the money and have no problem doing jail time for it, even in russian jail.
One of them said: "Most people are slaves of a job, for the entire life they will never earn what i did in couple years, i would gladly do 10 years and a thought of my financial cushion will warm me all this time"

Originally Posted by NikSam

I interviewed some serial fraudsters, they hid the money and have no problem doing jail time for it, even in russian jail.
One of them said: "Most people are slaves of a job, for the entire life they will never earn what i did in couple years, i would gladly do 10 years and a thought of my financial cushion will warm me all this time"

Indeed. I am sure nazis would say they didnt have problems killing gypsies or Jews and taking their gold teeth houses or whatever else they had. Drug dealers and extortionists who ran criminal gangs may also have retired with large amounts of money. Bank robbers might never have been caught and got away with it also and dont regret killing the bank guard. Yes indeed some guilty people may get away with it. The overarching jurisprudence however is to make sure innocent people are not punished in order to make sure guilty people do not get away.
But think again about what you are stating which amounts to: Bad people sometimes get away with doing bad things. Even if that is true why should that make any difference to Realscam?
Surely the point her is to reduce the amount of bad things people get away with and possibly prevent the same people or new scammers from doing the same in future? RealScam and other like Taratalks, Finchsells, Patrick Pretty, Eagle Investments all have a valid role to play and are fulfilling it even if scams continue.
What RS and they do in itself is an achievement even if sometimes there are those that get away. And even if they do get away they don't live an entirely free existence. Look at Ronnie Biggs for example. Hardly an ideal life in Brazil?

Originally Posted by NikSam

They still have chance to run away to a place where Canada or UK cannot touch them, they not being charged , and not gonna be for some time.

I think I have make the point but let me ask you would you rather nothing done about WWII nazis at all or that they be allowed go about their business after WWII or would you rather that they were on the run in most countries and some of them had to hide on South America or elsewhere with wealth they had "squirreled away"

At the end, the money they got is worth it, it is even worth doing few years in a canadian jail.

Well this is another issue about "punishment fitting the crime" . If they came out of jail and were put into jail on the basis that all their ill gotten gains had been given back it is true that they cant then be tried for the same crime again ( double jeopardy) . But if it later transpired they were hiding money away this as part of their original judgement could also be taken from them and they could be returned to prison.

Originally Posted by Beacon

I think I have make the point but let me ask you would you rather nothing done about WWII nazis at all or that they be allowed go about their business after WWII or would you rather that they were on the run in most countries and some of them had to hide on South America or elsewhere with wealth they had "squirreled away"


Well this is another issue about "punishment fitting the crime" . If they came out of jail and were put into jail on the basis that all their ill gotten gains had been given back it is true that they cant then be tried for the same crime again ( double jeopardy) . But if it later transpired they were hiding money away this as part of their original judgement could also be taken from them and they could be returned to prison.

I was not implying if one outcome is better than the other, or which punishment should be served.
I was just expanding the concept on how criminals can do it in the open and what they expect / plan at the end,
in reference to Brenda's post: "... how did they think they could get away with this? ..."

Originally Posted by NikSam

Of course they have way more offshore bank accounts nobody knows about.

This is called "argument from ignorance". We just dont know about other accounts. It may be they exist but the court will decide on FACTS and not on belief of there being other accounts.

It would be naive to assume that they who dealt primary with shady money launderers (Vector,AP/Payza,STP,WeW), have multiple offshore corporations to have only one offshore bank account. Isle of Man bank account was a mistake, because a serious crook would not have a corporation and a bank in same jurisdiction.

I begin to think Chris smith isn't a "serious crook". Maybe he is a non violent scammer who "got lucky" with this scam. He does not strike me as a particularly bright criminal. Indeed many legally wealthy people are not bright at all either most of them having inherited their wealth. The whole Isle of Man episode gives the impression that Smith hadn't a clue about business or finance and chanced his arm. sadly if he had learned a bit about either his "chancer" personality possibly could have afforded him some success in a proper business. Having said that though Raj chris and others seem to have other criminal elements of their personality in common. Narcissism, and sociopath tendencies. They seem to care little of the consequences of their actions so long as their ego image and enjoyment is being satisfied. They lack the ability to empathise with others. They are the centre of the world and if anything goes wrong they are the victim.

There are definitely accounts in Belize

Again we dont know.

(they had to' pay there alot including a senator,

again we don't know about shoman or the extent of her involvement.

flashing a canadian or IoM bank there is dumb), who or on which corporation those accounts are might be never determined.

Exactly! An if you cant determine it you cant say it is certain!

And if I was a Chris I would definitely open an account in Trinidad and Tobago while I am physically there. How many rainy days do you think he was planning for ?

If I was chris I might be too dumb or careless to think of consequences of the scheme collapsing. I might be to caught up in the moment and to busy enjoying the money I scammed from others.

Originally Posted by NikSam

I was not implying if one outcome is better than the other, or which punishment should be served.
I was just expanding the concept on how criminals can do it in the open and what they expect / plan at the end,
in reference to Brenda's post: "... how did they think they could get away with this? ..."

Nor was I saying what outcome is better. But I do think for normal people it is better to be involved in exposing scams then not to be involved even if the scammers sometimes succeed. If we didnt think that way democracies would collapse. and I do agree in some modern societies people are saying being involved is futile. Also it points to the difference between the sociopathic narcissistic criminal psychology and the community respect and social values of most people.

Originally Posted by Beacon

Nor was I saying what outcome is better. But I do think for normal people it is better to be involved in exposing scams then not to be involved even if the scammers sometimes succeed. If we didnt think that way democracies would collapse. and I do agree in some modern societies people are saying being involved is futile. Also it points to the difference between the sociopathic narcissistic criminal psychology and the community respect and social values of most people.

Neither i implied we should just stop doing what we do when scammers are getting away, with my experience most did get away, it just makes me fight them harder, but still keeping the law gloves on.

Originally Posted by Beacon

DUTY TO PROVIDE ACCESS AND CO-OPERATION TO THE RECEIVER
http://www.spergel.ca/corporate/reso...20Order%29.pdf
Orders under 4 (v) "Any other entity"

I also not in the suppliamentary order ( and this really snookers Facebook Linkedin etc.)

9.
THIS COURT ORDERS that if any Records are stored or otherwise contained on acomputer or other electronic system of information storage, whether by independent serviceprovider or otherwise, all Persons in possession or control of such Records shall forthwith giveunfettered access to the Receiver for the purpose of allowing the Receiver to recover and fullycopy all of the information contained therein whether by way of printing the information onto paperor making copies of computer disks or such other manner of retrieving and copying theinformation as the Receiver in its discretion deems expedient, and shall not alter, erase or destroyany Records without the prior written consent of the Receiver.

Also while not Ordering Isle of Man it does Request the order apply to the Isle of Man and be recognised by them. This would bring its application into the British courts. If so ther is a part of it about "non interference" which Gives Appelton ( the liquidator) a lot of powers but it also freezes out anyoing else for example Driscoll from tasking any case or resolving their own case while Appelton is doing their job.

Originally Posted by Beacon

Assuming they dont get 100 years or similar which they might get in the USA.

Chris isn't Madoff who received 150 years. The average jail time in the USA doesn't seem to be that high (100 years) for Ponzi operators in the USA, i.e.:

August 28, 2014
Disgraced Cincinnati money manager Glen Galemmo was sentenced Thursday to more than 15 years in prison for bilking tens of millions of dollars from more than 140 investors.

December 12, 2013
Federal authorities say a Northeast Ohio man wanted by the FBI in connection with a $65 million Ponzi scheme was arrested in Peru Wednesday morning after more than a decade on the run. Bartoli could face more than 10 years in jail and hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines if he's tried and convicted in the 2003 indictment.

April 16, 2012
United States Attorney Laura E. Duffy announced that today United States District Court Judge Michael M. Anello sentenced Steven Bartko to serve 24 months in custody for his role in a Ponzi scheme that defrauded investors of over $5 million.

Dec 13, 2012
A hotel operator who prosecutors said defrauded more than 7,000 investors in a $500 million Ponzi scheme was sentenced in Chicago to five years in prison after pleading guilty to securities fraud. Prosecutors said Kelly operated his schemes between 1998 and 2004.

Originally Posted by Ken Roklin

Chris isn't Madoff who received 150 years. The average jail time in the USA doesn't seem to be that high (100 years) for Ponzi operators in the USA, i.e.:

August 28, 2014
Disgraced Cincinnati money manager Glen Galemmo- 15 years in

December 12, 2013
Federal authorities say a Northeast Ohio - Bartoli could face more than 10 years in jail and hundreds of thousands of dollars in fines

Steven Bartko to serve 24 months in custody for his role in a Ponzi scheme that defrauded investors of over $5 million.

Dec 13, 2012
A hotel operator who - 7,000 investors in a $500 million Ponzi scheme was sentenced in Chicago to five years in prison

Yes but where I come from people get six years for manslaughter and may get out in three.

On the other issues of "why should we bother" and "is it all worth it"
https://www.idology.com/idologylaunches2014fraudreport
highlights from IDology’s 2014 Fraud Report: Confidence in preventing certain types of fraud declines; Customer awareness of fraud increases while fraudsters continue to shift tactics;

I have a laundry list of criminals I would like to see serving longer sentences and/or doing hard labor to reimburse their victims. Sadly the justice system does not always give us what we want. Warning potential victims away be it from a rag tag group of bloggers, or a concerted effort from the authorities is the biggest bang for the buck in slowing fraud. Who can say how big any of these programs would get if people were not steered from "too good to be true"?

Once money games implode in most cases all the money is gone, a legal judgement and life sentence won't change that. Even if Chris and Raj get buried under the prison the lure of easy money both for the scammer and scamee insures the next big con is right around the corner.

Dec 13, 2012
A hotel operator who - 7,000 investors in a $500 million Ponzi scheme was sentenced in Chicago to five years in prison... well that's $70,000 per "investor" that's a lotta seed monies..

Originally Posted by Brenda

...

BB is a real company
we are here for the long term
payments are in the process of going out ( bank statement analysis would confirm this was not true)
complex nonsense terminology without meaning or substance to keep the scam going from week to week
promises of newer improved systems to support BB business growth
consistent promise breaking on payment deadlines
discussions on compliance to affiliates when there was nothing compliant about BB
statements made regarding the collection of fees and charges
fraudulent car draw announcements, in fact fraudulent fee collecting / panel buying promises to for personal gain of BB top staff
world tour recruitment drives and associated bullshit

the list of lies are endless and plentiful based on the recordings of those webinars alone. ...

The evidence is right there, given to the investigators, by the criminals, on a plate!

TYhe thing is this above evidence is also there for the non "big players" mentioned in the court doccuments. the Jamies the Strpsyses the Soozi sconzes The Balantynes of this world all have questions to answer and have left a record on facebook linkedin etc. and the liquidator could be asking them for the relevant data. There must be at least around a hundred of the mid range players listed in this discussion thread alone. Maybe the likes of Scones does not have to pay money back but the gains people like that made from BB ( or whether they made them) needs to be verified and even if they made nothing it could be quantified how much they encouraged others to join.

Originally Posted by ribshaw

I have a laundry list of criminals I would like to see serving longer sentences and/or doing hard labor to reimburse their victims. Sadly the justice system does not always give us what we want.

I agree which is why I call it the court system. Expect the law to be employed usually in a level handed manner if both sides have equal ability in their representation. Dont expect justice in a court of law.

Warning potential victims away be it from a rag tag group of bloggers, or a concerted effort from the authorities is the biggest bang for the buck in slowing fraud. Who can say how big any of these programs would get if people were not steered from "too good to be true"?

Well you ask a question about psychology oif victims here as opposed to psychology of criminals. there is no law against stupidity but it is difficult to say when someone trusting someone else becomes stupid. But to be fair you ( in reference to "to good to be true") are referring to clear black and white and not the grey middle area to which I refer.

Once money games implode in most cases all the money is gone, a legal judgement and life sentence won't change that. Even if Chris and Raj get buried under the prison the lure of easy money both for the scammer and scamee insures the next big con is right around the corner.

Luckily there is at least ten to twenty million in visible assets in BB.
But now you switch from victims to criminals' psychology. Yes ther will be more loosing for victims but as I stated they could make more in a legit business. You know you remind me of games like Runescape and World of Warcraft. There are those who focus on killing other p;layers so they can steal their wealth rather than build up anything. the only "friends" they have are thise who facilitate them operating in such a manner. and they can turn on them just as easily. Go figure.