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Thread: Sound familiar?

  1. #1
    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Sound familiar?

    Where have we heard these statements and arguments before?

    Pro MLMers will latch on to anything anyone ever said positive about MLM as though it proves that MLM is the greatest thing ever...even an author who mentions MLM just to sell books.

    MLMers pull all this BS out of thin air like Donald Trump says he would do MLM if he had to do it all over again, or MLM is taught at Harvard, or MLM produces more millionaires than corporate America...all of which is at best lip service and more likely complete BS that MLMers naively assume is true without ever validating any of it.

    MLMers think they are business owners...yet the bulk of them have sold product only to a few friends and family and maybe have a few reps under them who are equally incapable of actually doing enough volume on their own to make a living. They also merely own a license to sell a real companies product that can be taken away at any time. The majority of all MLMers claiming to be in business for themselves not only don't have any business education, they don't even understand simple business terms like opportunity cost, marginal utility, or even a simple supply/demand graph.

    You can put an MLMer in any situation and they always look at everyone they meet as a prospect and at one point or another intend to bother those people with the business opportunity.

    MLMers lump everyone who doesn't like their business into people who must be wage slaves, working for someone else and/or a sheep and a negative person trying to bring down their company. They also assume that anyone disagreeing is incapable of understanding business concepts (as ironic as that may be).

    MLMers proudly profess that the secret to wealth is building your downline at geometric rates that are unattainable. They say things like sponsoring 3 people who also sponsor 3people who also do the same and so on. It is supposed to look like this:

    Level 1: 3 people
    Level 2: 9 people
    Level 3: 27
    Level 4: 81
    Level 5: 243
    Level 6: 729
    Level 7: 2,187

    So they look at that and tell you that with a lot of hard work, its possible to have over 2100 people in your organization earning money...but they are either too naive or intentionally deceiving you by not bringing up the fact that those 2,187 people on your 7th level are not going to stick around unless they ALSO can build the company as deep, and same with the people who would be on their 7th level...and so on and so forth. So it has to continue to grow. But look at what is looks like on the 21st level:

    Level 1: 3 people
    Level 2: 9 people
    Level 3: 27
    Level 4: 81
    Level 5: 243
    Level 6: 729
    Level 7: 2,187
    Level 8: 6,561
    Level 9: 19,683
    Level 10: 59,049
    Level 11: 177,147
    Level 12: 531,441
    Level 13: 1,594,323
    Level 14: 4,782,969
    Level 15: 14,348,907
    Level 16: 43,046,721
    Level 17: 129,140,163
    Level 18: 387,420,489
    Level 19: 1,162,261,467
    Level 20: 3,486,784,401
    Level 21: 10,460,353,203

    Over 10 BILLION people are needed now to maintain this thing so that people are not dropping out. MLMers don't like simple math.

    MLMers like to use terms in the real business world and apply them to MLM as though they are one in the same. For instance, "real business is set up as a pyramid as well"...of course real businesses don't need to keep getting more and more sales people just to pay the ones they already have. "Its just like buying a franchise"...except buying a franchise you actually get to look at the incomes of franchises that are successful and you don't need to convince everyone you meet that your business is legit.

    The only real entrepreneurs in MLM are the ones selling training material to the dreamers who eat it up because they think they are in the best business ever. Its no different than when smart business people sold shovels during the gold rush when naive people spent their life savings looking for gold that less than 0.001% of the people ever found, but the shovel salespeople made a killing. The same can be said for those selling promotional materials to the MLMers (sadly, most MLMers are too captivated by the false dream of MLM to even realize that the people selling promotional materials buy their way to top levels putting their own money in to set themselves up to sell the material.

    MLMers too often fall into the health and wellness industry and have ridiculous claims about their products. The reality is that MLMers convince themselves that their products are wonders because they are justifying their dream of making money. If an MLMer didn't think he/she could make money selling the product, they would be forced to give an unbiased opinion of the product and inevitable see if for the sham it is. No MLM has any product with scientifically proven benefits...the benefits are only the dreams of those trying to sell it. MLM companies in the health and wealth industry typically have nearly all their sales coming from distributors, not through sales. The misguided reps will tell you that is because anyone who used the product automatically wants to be a distributor, which is like suggesting that people who like drinking coke would suddenly want to become coke salespeople. MLMers in the health industry will use lines like suggesting that the health and wellness industry is one of the biggest industries and with the baby boomers its only going to get bigger, both which are true...but then they try to use that fact to justify why their product is the perfect opportunity. That, of course, is because of their general lack of any business education. It would be like saying that since the price of gas rising by leaps and bounds that owning a gas station is a brilliant idea these days. Anyone with any business intelligence knowns that the gas station needs to be assessed on its own merits, not on an entire worldwide stat. MLMer's don't understand how to analyze a business however, and this is why they try to sign up their aunt, their postman, their babysitter, etc.

    MLM is the worst opportunity because it uses the cult mentality to convince its reps to stay put. Cults use arguments that are circular and cannot be disputed. So, the average MLMer is led to believe that if they get too hung up on the numbers, or they look at the opportunity negatively, then THAT is why they would fail...therefore, they only look at things positively and refuse to question things that do not add up. That is how cults work, and why you find people in cults and MLM who defend their view with intense emotion instead of willingly debating logic. MLMers won't use logic because unbiased logical views of their business tell the story of why MLM doesn't add up.

    It's immoral, because the vast majority of participants HAVE to lose money in order for the small minority to succeed. That's the part they never tell you.

    In most cases, the worst part of the multi-level thing is the multi-level. The only way to make any money is to recruit people to recruit people to recruit people. The chain will eventually stop as everyone (usually you) runs out of people to sign up. If you want to sell a product, sell a product where you get repeat sales and repeat profits. I cannot tell you how many times I was solicited to sell Amway. There's not a single Rep out there that actively sells just the products ... they just sell the company, the vision, the false hope and the b.s.

  2. #2
    Soapboxmom's Avatar
    Soapboxmom is offline Administrator
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    MLM is a math trick at the end of the day. That fact, which dictates the vast majority in the recruitment scheme will lose money, is precisely why I believe MLMs are all scams and it is in fact inherent fraud. As we already demonstrated with many MLMs exposed here there are few retail sales, so there is nothing but a towering pyramid filled with starry-eyed recruits that have a 97% failure rate.

    Great post ALA!

    Soapboxmom

  3. #3
    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Thanks, Mom......people need to think, do the research and be informed. Sadly, in this state of the current economy, the MLM dogs are on the prowl en masse to lure, bilk the gullible, the needy and the desperate. I always wonder what year our government will step up to the plate and put an end to these thousands of scams that pervade our society and which have raped billions off of consumers for decades now.

    It's also wonderful to be able to post the truth and the facts without the silly troll behavior responses that you get you know where. lol

  4. #4
    littleroundman is offline Administrator
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Interestingly (well, to me, anyway)

    Much of what the M.L.M. "industry" manages to get away with is inadvertently caused by many of the anti-M.L.M advocates themselves.

    A simple and oft used statement such as "all M.L.Ms are scams" is allowed to be defended by the omission of a definition of what constitutes a "scam"

    Is a business (any kind of business) which simultaneously warns their containers are not suitable for children while it allows its' "distributors" to feature not only children, but INFANT children to feature in their advertising happily sucking down their product straight from the bottle a "scam" ???

    If the same company and/or company spokesperson, when confronted, attacks those who have pointed out such facts, rather than admitting fault, does that contribute to a "scam" label.

    The examples are many and, IM(very)HO a change of plan is warranted for both pro and anti forces

  5. #5
    Lisa is offline Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    I think littleroundman started on an interesting point. What constitutes a scam? I'm not arguing for MLM, per se, but by your own admission numerous legitimate business's that are in the US today would be scams.

    It's immoral, because the vast majority of participants HAVE to lose money in order for the small minority to succeed. That's the part they never tell you.
    What large business in America does that statement not pertain to? Large banks take advantage of consumers who lose money so that the handful of leaders who run the business can receive large checks. Who makes the most money in WalMart? The small group of CEO's and other leaders, meanwhile the way WalMart works it entices their own empoyees to spend their paychecks there.

    Are all major corporations in the United States immoral? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you if you said yes.

  6. #6
    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    Interestingly (well, to me, anyway)

    Much of what the M.L.M. "industry" manages to get away with is inadvertently caused by many of the anti-M.L.M advocates themselves.

    A simple and oft used statement such as "all M.L.Ms are scams" is allowed to be defended by the omission of a definition of what constitutes a "scam"

    Is a business (any kind of business) which simultaneously warns their containers are not suitable for children while it allows its' "distributors" to feature not only children, but INFANT children to feature in their advertising happily sucking down their product straight from the bottle a "scam" ???

    If the same company and/or company spokesperson, when confronted, attacks those who have pointed out such facts, rather than admitting fault, does that contribute to a "scam" label.

    The examples are many and, IM(very)HO a change of plan is warranted for both pro and anti forces
    It is generally agreed that to mislead people in order to get their money is morally reprehensible. It is labeled "theft" or "fraud," and those who do it should be punished. No one is naive enough to suggest that you can't make money at it. Crime can pay, at least temporarily.

    Pyramid schemes are illegal. They are illegal because they are exploitative and dishonest. They exploit the most vulnerable of people: the desperate, the out-of-work, the ignorant. Those who start and practice such fraud, should, and increasingly are, being punished for their crimes.

    But add a product for cover, and call it an MLM, and people are willing to swallow its legality.

    While one could claim that many advertisers outside of MLMs lure people into buying their products, they do not promise them riches for doing so or buying that product and trying to sell it to others, nor do they demand that you recruit others.

    People can make money in an MLM, undeniably. The moral issue is: Where is the money coming from? Selling product? Then why not sell the same product in the "real world"?

    But everyone knows that the real incentive is the pyramid aspect, and the product just the excuse to make it legal, or at least the MLM promoter would like you to believe it is legal. The products are in the vast majority of MLMs worthless, overpriced junk. It's the recruiting of others into the MLM and the MLM founders selling training tapes, videos, books, meeting sessions, conventions and a plethora of ad ons to the members, and this is where the real money is made. There are also all the various fees, memberships, auto ships, websites, distributor fees etc., that bring in the dough to those at the top of the scam.

    Regardless of all the vehement denials, MLMs are all to some extent pyramid schemes, and pyramid schemes are illegal. Sure, some are "getting away with it," but so did the Mafia for decades. It is hard to stop a juggernaut, especially one that has taken such pains to look legitimate and misunderstood, that is highly organized, and that has so much money from its victims to propagandize, lobby, and defend itself. And so the exploitation goes on.

    MLMs grow by exploiting people's relationships. If you are going to be in an MLM, you swallow hard and accept this as part of "building your business." This is "networking." But to those not "in" the MLM, it seems as if friendship is merely a pretext for phoniness, friendliness is suspected as prospecting, and so on. There is no middle ground here, try as you might.

    When it comes to selling product, MLM sales reps are probably no more aggressive or obnoxious than ordinary salespeople. Since most are not salespeople by nature, and it is characteristic that MLMs attract few people with any experience selling this particular product or service, they usually sell through pre-fab "parties" or home "demos." Thus, sales pressure is exerted by situation, if at all.

    When selling product, the only distinction from a real-world business is the possibility for deception due to the "looseness" of the MLM and the incentive to exaggerate claims without any accountability. Other than this, selling product in an MLM is fairly similar to selling any product in the real world.

    But when it comes to getting you "signed up" as a "distributor," the MLMers get pushy and deceptive beyond the boundaries of polite social norms and often the claims being made about the product are outlandish, unfounded and ridiculous. In the case of MLM "health" products, they can be down right dangerous and deadly.

    Remember, an MLM is defined by its rewarding people to recruit others in multiple levels. Follow the money.

    Where is the money coming from for those at the top? From the sucker at the bottom... as in every pyramid scheme. The product could be, and lately has been, anything.

    For most MLMs, the product is really a mere diversion from the real profit-making dynamic. To anyone familiar with MLMs, the previous discussion (which focused so much on the fact that MLMs are "doomed by design" to reach market saturation and thus put the people who are legitimately trying to sell the product into a difficult situation) may seem to miss the point. The product is not the incentive to join an MLM. Otherwise people might have shown an interest in selling this particular product or service before in the real world. The product is the excuse to attempt to legitimate the real money-making engine. It's "the cover."

    This is why MLMs are not the same as a real, legitimate business. But the way to make money in all this is clearly not by only selling product, otherwise one might have shown an interest in it before, through conventional market opportunities. No, the "hook" is selling others on selling others on "the dream."

    The important thing is to exploit people while the exploiting is good, if you want to make quick money at MLM.

    Thus, the MLM organization becomes exploitative, and many high-level MLM promoters have been shut down, the "executives" incarcerated, for selling the fraud of impossible success to others. Other, larger MLMs have survived by hiring large batteries of attorneys to ward off federal prosecutors, even bragging about the funds they have in reserve for this purpose.

    The unfortunate "distributor" at the bottom is the loser, and once this becomes apparent beyond all the slick videotapes and motivational pep-talks, good people start to get a bad taste in their mouths about the whole situation.

    So, yes, money can be made with MLM. The question is whether the money being made is legitimate or "made" via a sophisticated con scheme. And if MLM is "doomed by design" to fail, then the answer is, unfortunately, the latter.

  7. #7
    calvinandhobbes is offline Junior Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lisa View Post
    What large business in America does that statement not pertain to?
    Nearly every business out there, that's who. The company I work for designs machines. We sell them to our dealers, who sell them to their customers. We have thousands of suppliers who we buy parts from. All of those suppliers have their own suppliers. Everyone involved have their own employees. All of those employees make money. Suppliers buy raw material and make parts and sell them to us for more than they paid to make them. We sell our machines for more than the sum of the costs to make them. Our dealers sell the machines for more than they buy them for. Their customers use the machines to do services....and charge more than their costs. In the end, customers get what they want and everyone makes money. Occasionally, a supplier goes under because their costs were different than they thought, or the lost enough business to not be sustainable, but someone else replaces them who can make it. No one HAS to lose money.

    With MLM, the only way for everyone to make money is to continually grow. The bottom base has to keep expanding or those bottom rungs lose money. There's only so much room for expansion. There's no doubt real business usually flourish more when growing, but zero growth can be profitable for everyone, owner to janitor.

    Saying someone HAS to lose in corporate america only serves to show a lack of business understanding.
    Large banks take advantage of consumers who lose
    money so that the handful of leaders who run the business can receive large checks.
    No. While large banks certainly have had MASSIVE problems, a large check doesn't have to come from someone's loss. If banks give out sound loans, when they are repaid with interest, the margin can pay for some very hefty checks.
    Who makes the most money in WalMart? The small group of CEO's and other leaders, meanwhile the way WalMart works it entices their own empoyees to spend their paychecks there.
    Oh my. So, yes, while Walmart CEO's are paid more than rank and file employees, those rank and file employees leave with a check at the end of the week. Real money. More than what they started the week with. They do not have to get more employees under them to make money or convince people to buy overpriced goods. Spending money where they work? Well, sure, if they want to. they aren't required to in order to get their check. And if encouraging people to spend money where they work is bad, then MLM is the single worst offender in this arena. It's pretty much the definition of the arena.
    Are all major corporations in the United States immoral? I wouldn't necessarily disagree with you if you said yes.
    And you'd be wrong, IMO. This part is an opinion, so you are welcome to think what you want. The other stuff, you are just wrong by definition.

  8. #8
    Lisa is offline Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    The problem, calvinandhobbes, is that they're not required to keep expanding in order to keep money. Melaleuca is a perfect example of this. Let's say you only enroll 3 people and stop expanding your business. You STILL get paid each month even if you're not expanding because people keep placing product orders and that's how you make your money.

    Someone always loses in corporate America. WalMart pays their employees just above minimum wage, gives their employees discounts at their stores meaning the employee will likely spend their paycheck at the store, therefore increasing the pocket size of those who are at the top of the chain. And just like MLM, if the boys at the top want to make more money they expand, building more locations to bring in a bigger profit. Sure, WalMart employees are guaranteed a check for the time they work and they're not guaranteed money in MLM but that doesn't mean that big business in the US isn't any less immoral.

    But let's look at big banks, because right now they are probably the largest offenders against the average consumer. Sure, some of these banks have paid back their bailout money, but not all of them have and these places are still around because the consumers of this nation were forced to give them money to make up for their poor investment decisions. Once receiving bailout money we learned of large bonus's, trips, and other money given to those at the TOP of these banks while they laid off their lower level employees because they "couldn't afford them". What exactly about that situation is moral?

    I'm not talking about small business's. I'm talking about LARGE businesses like JP Morgan, AIG, and WalMart. To say these companies aren't immoral is beyond me.

  9. #9
    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    If you are in an MLM, you are told by that MLM that "you have your own business" and that "you are in business for yourself" and that "you are your own boss". These are lies. Blatant, immoral lies.

    Think about it. If your MLM program was your own business, than you should be able to:

    Move to a different upline if you’re not 100% satisfied with yours
    Move your entire downline or team to a different company if you want
    Create your own marketing plan instead of following a system
    Make suggestions on product development and improvement
    Cross-sell products and services from other manufacturers
    Advertise your business directly if you need more sales
    and , muchmore.

    But you can’t do those things in MLM now, can you?

    The MLM business model, as it is practiced by most MLM companies, is a marketplace hoax. In those cases, the business is primarily a scheme to continuously enroll distributors and little product is ever retailed to consumers who are not also enrolled as distributors.

    In general, MLM industry claims of distributor income potential, its descriptions of the 'network' business model and its prophecies of a reigning destiny in product distribution have as much validity in business as UFO sightings do in the realm of science.

    Financially, the odds for an individual to achieve financial success under those circumstances rival the odds of winning at the tables in Las Vegas.

    The very legality of the MLM system rests tenuously upon a single 1979 ruling on one company. The guidelines for legality that are set forth in that ruling are routinely ignored by the industry. Lack of governing legislation or oversight by any designated authority also enables the industry to endure despite occasional prosecutions by state Attorneys General or the FTC.

    MLM is not defined and regulated like, for instance, franchises are. MLMs can be established without federal or state approval. There is no federal law specifically against pyramid schemes. Many state anti-pyramid statutes are vague or weak. State or federal regulation usually involves first proving that the company is a pyramid scheme. This process can take years and by then, the damage to consumers is done. Indeed, even when MLM pyramids are shut down, often the promoters immediately set up new companies under new names and resume scamming the public.

    MLM's economic score card is characterized by massive failure rates and financial losses for millions of consumers. Its structure in which positions on an endless sales chain are purchased by selling or buying goods is mathematically unsustainable and its system of allowing unlimited numbers of distributors in any market area is inherently unstable.

    MLM's espoused core business - personal retailing - is contrary to trends in communication technology, cost-effective distribution, and consumer buying preferences. The retailing activity is, in reality, only a pretext for the actual core business - enrolling investors in pyramid organizations that promise exponential income growth.

    As in all pyramid schemes, the incomes of those distributors at the top and the profits to the sponsoring corporations come from a continuous influx of new investors at the bottom. Viewed superficially in terms of company profits and the wealth of an elite group at the pinnacle of the MLM industry, the model can appear viable to the uninformed, just as all pyramid schemes do before they collapse or are exposed by authorities.

    Deceptive marketing that ably plays upon treasured cultural beliefs, social and personal needs, and some economic trends account for MLM's growth, rather than its ability to meet any consumer needs. The deceptive marketing is nurtured by a general lack of professional evaluation or investigation by reputable business media. Consequently, a popular delusion is supported that MLM is a viable business investment or career choice for nearly everyone and the odds of financial success in the venture are comparable or better than other trades, professions, employment or business ventures.

    MLM's true constituency is not the consuming public but rather hopeful investors. The market for these investors grows significantly in times of economic transition, globalization and employee displacement. Promises of quick and easy financial deliverance and the beguiling association of wealth with ultimate happiness also play well in this market setting. The marketing thrust of MLM is accordingly directed to prospective distributors, rather than product promotions to purchasers. Its true products are not long distance phone services, vitamin pills, health potions or skin lotions, but rather the investment propositions for distributorships, which are deceptively portrayed with images of high income, minimal time requirements, small capital investments and early success.

    At some level, everyone who participates in MLM in which little retailing is occurring is unconsciously lying to himself or herself. Many at the top of these organizations are consciously lying to everyone else. Deception is inherent in this type of MLM scheme and is pervasive in its marketing.

    LIE: MLM is a business offering better opportunities for making large sums of money than all other conventional business and professional models.

    TRUTH: For almost everyone who invests MLM turns out to be a losing financial proposition. This is not an opinion, but a historical fact. Consider some notable examples from among the largest MLMs.

    In the largest of all MLMs, Amway, only 1/2 of one percent of all distributors make it to the basic level of "direct" distributor, and the average income of all Amway distributors is about $40 a month. That is gross income before taxes and expenses. When costs are factored, it is obvious that nearly all suffer a loss. Making it to "direct", however, is not a ticket to profitability, but to greater losses. When the Wisconsin Attorney General filed charges against Amway, tax returns from all distributors in the state revealed an average net loss of $918 for that state's "direct" distributors.

    Extraordinary sales and marketing obstacles account for much of this failure, but even if the business were more feasible, sheer mathematics would severely limit the opportunity. The MLM type of business structure can support only a small number of financial winners. If a 1,000-person downline is needed to earn a sustainable income, those 1,000 will need one million more to duplicate the success. How many people can realistically be enrolled? Much of what appears as growth is in fact only the continuous churning of new enrollees. The money for the rare winners comes from the constant enrollment of armies of losers.

    The vast majority of the losers in MLM drop out within a year. In a 1999 court case brought against Melaleuca, one of the country's largest MLMs, the company claimed it has the highest "retention" rate among distributors in the entire MLM industry. Melaleuca boasted a drop-out rate is 5.5% per month. This equates to about 60% per year, if the dropouts are replaced each month.

    In its annual report to the SEC, Pre-Paid Legal, another large MLM, revealed that more than 1/2 of all its customers and distributors quit each year and are replaced by another group of hopeful investors.

    This pattern of 50-70% of all distributors quitting within one year holds true also for NuSkin, the industry's second largest MLM. NuSkin also exemplifies the accompanying pattern in which a tiny percent of the distributors gain the majority of all company rebates. In 1998, NuSkin paid out 2/3rds of its entire rebates to just 200 upliners out of more than 63,000 "active" distributors. The money they received came directly from the unprofitably investments of the 99.7% of the others.

    In 1995, Excel Communications, another "fast growing" MLM, reported to regulators an 86% turnover rate of distributors and 48% drop-out rate among all customers.

    To obscure their dismal numbers, some MLMs classify their distributors as "active" and "inactive." The Active group includes only recent participants and those still buying products or receiving rebates. Payout and retention statistics are then disclosed only on the "active" group.

    If ALL distributors who participate are included the losses and the average incomes are exposed as much worse. And, if all the distributors who enroll and quit over several years are included, the odds of success for a new distributor/investor are shown to be absurdly low. Yet, these companies typically advertise their business as "an opportunity of a life time" with "unlimited potential."

    LIE: You can do MLM in your spare time. As a business, it offers the greatest flexibility and personal freedom of time. A few hours a week can earn a significant supplemental income and may grow to a very large income making other work unnecessary.

    TRUTH: Decades of experience involving millions of people have proven that making money in MLM requires extraordinary time commitment as well as considerable personal wiliness, persistence and deception. Beyond the sheer hard work and special aptitude required, the business model inherently consumes more areas of ones life and greater segments of time. In MLM, everyone is a prospect. Every waking moment is a potential time for marketing. There are no off-limit places, people or times for selling. Consequently, there is no free space or free time once a person enrolls in MLM system.

    Under the guise of creating money independently and in your free time, the system gains control and dominance over people's entire lives and requires rigid conformity to the program. This accounts for why so many people who become deeply involved end up needing and relying upon MLM desperately. They alienate or abandon other sustaining relationships.

    LIE: MLM is the best option for owning your own business and attaining real economic independence.

    TRUTH: MLM is not true self-employment. 'Owning' an MLM distributorship is an illusion. Some MLM companies forbid distributors from carrying additional lines. Most MLM contracts make termination of the distributorship easy and immediate for the company. Short of termination, downlines can be taken away with a variety of means. Participation requires rigid adherence to the 'duplication' model, not independence and individuality. MLM distributors are not entrepreneurs but joiners in a complex hierarchical system over which they have little control.

  10. #10
    iamwil is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Life Aloft View Post
    If you are in an MLM, you are told by that MLM that "you have your own business" and that "you are in business for yourself" and that "you are your own boss". These are lies. Blatant, immoral lies.
    I guess than the McDees owner isn't a business owner either?
    Quote Originally Posted by A Life Aloft View Post

    Think about it. If your MLM program was your own business, than you should be able to:

    Move to a different upline if you’re not 100% satisfied with yours
    you can just as if you moved your store to a new state you'd lose all your customers and start over.
    Quote Originally Posted by A Life Aloft View Post
    Move your entire downline or team to a different company if you want
    Now that one happens all the time...it is one of the problems with MLM
    Quote Originally Posted by A Life Aloft View Post
    Create your own marketing plan instead of following a system
    Now that would not be owning your own business center in XYZ company, but starting your own MLM...try that one at McDees...see how far that would fly...you can't even by your coffee cups from someone else.
    Quote Originally Posted by A Life Aloft View Post
    Make suggestions on product development and improvement
    Cross-sell products and services from other manufacturers
    Advertise your business directly if you need more sales
    and , muchmore.

    MLM distributors are not entrepreneurs but joiners in a complex hierarchical system over which they have little control.
    Same answers over and over...yes you are a business owner, but you follow the rules of the mlm or the franchise...it is part of branding and expediency...want to start your own burger stand...have at it...don't use our decades worth of experience.

  11. #11
    Emet is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    I guess than the McDees owner isn't a business owner either?
    This has already been discussed. If you're discussing Franchise owners, the comparison is invalid. They do own their businesses as long as they abide by the stipulated contract.
    IBO's of MLMs own nothing. They are merely independent contractors.

    There is a difference.
    A half-truth is a whole lie.

  12. #12
    BruceShuell's Avatar
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    You are correct Emet. MLM members are independent contractors...not business owners. They don't 'own' anything. They sell on behalf of the MLM and receive a commission for those sales. That's it.

    I don't know of one MLm that is a franchise. YTB sort of thought about it, everyone got all excited, and it wwas hardly ever mentioned again. Too complicated and not enough wiggle room for scammers....
    But it's a dry heat!

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    Seriously?'s Avatar
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceShuell View Post
    YTB sort of thought about it, everyone got all excited, and it wwas hardly ever mentioned again. Too complicated and not enough wiggle room for scammers....
    The thought got them out of hot water with CA...
    Don't take life too serious. You'll never escape it alive anyway.
    ~ Elbert Hubbard

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    iamwil is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emet View Post
    This has already been discussed. If you're discussing Franchise owners, the comparison is invalid. They do own their businesses as long as they abide by the stipulated contract.
    IBO's of MLMs own nothing. They are merely independent contractors.

    There is a difference.
    This would be wrong. I own my business and can sell it, will it or do with it as I wish "as long as I abide by my stipulated contract" But unlike McDees, as I operate out of my house on that same phone at that same address I can sell anything else I like as well.

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    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    And an owner of a McDees franchise makes more profit in one month than you make in an entire year. Let's be honest here for a minute. Bragging that you work out of your home instead of an office with support staff means what exactly? Oh yeah, let me guess....you can't afford those things, don't do enough business and can't make use of them to begin with. Many legit people can work at home but stilll have a support staff off site and they actually make enough money to support themselves and a family. You can't say the same, can you? But then I guess meeting your clients at a McDees is fine in your case. Where do you come up with this b.s.?

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    Unsaved Trash is offline Another site bit the dust
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    This would be wrong. I own my business and can sell it, will it or do with it as I wish "as long as I abide by my stipulated contract" But unlike McDees, as I operate out of my house on that same phone at that same address I can sell anything else I like as well.
    I'm a little confused here, Wil. Please explain something to me. You've stated over yonder that you've never made a profit in TriVita. Then you go on to state this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Iamwil
    what do you think I'm using to pay the mortgage, health insurance, 25k into the 401k every year. I've said repeatedly...I have a job, I have kids, I have rentals, I work with scouts and church and soccer...and in between I've created a business that is worth over 50k if I sell it....to me that isn't too bad. But what do I know.
    I don't get it. If you've never made a profit, how could your business be worth over 50K? Example, if I owned a website with no inventory, yet I did have a few sales, and I never made a profit, what would it be worth? Nothing except maybe the name which could maybe be purchased for $25 and my client list which would obviously be worthless since I never cleared a profit from them. I'd like to hear your philosophy on this bit about how you could profit 50K from the sale of your business.
    GEORGE DRANICHAK - OWNER OF SCAM.COM, PORN MOGUL AND KING OF THE PORN SPAMMERS

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    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    He said over there recently that he does not expect to make a profit this year either. Yet he disses any real business and real businessmen. Then he claims he may travel abroad and write that off his taxes as a business expense. What a crock of b.s. I don't even think he actually believes half the stuff he posts, he just posts nonsense to try and make himself appear like he knows something and that his "business" is legit and a going concern. Yeah.....right. 50k my ass. $50.00...... maybe. And no real assets either. Yeah that's appealing. His accountant (if he has one) must be laughing his ass off. You spent what and made what? And you've been doing this how many years and have not had any real tangible, discernible growth to even make a profit? That's MLM success for you! Ignore the facts, the truth and the lack of making an actual decent income, let alone a profit and just dazzle them with bullshit. Oh, but he saves money working out of his living room on his home computer and home phone.Yeah, that's a real business alrighty. lol

  18. #18
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unsaved Trash
    I don't get it. If you've never made a profit, how could your business be worth over 50K? Example, if I owned a website with no inventory, yet I did have a few sales, and I never made a profit, what would it be worth?
    It can't be worth over $50,000. I think iamwil is just making up numbers. He could have said that it's worth $75,000 or $95,000 dollars.

    I own shares of stock, and I know how much I would get if I sold them.

    I wouldn't exaggerate and say that my shares are worth $50,000 when they're worth less than $15,000.

    He wouldn't know what the real value of his little, unprofitable business is until he actually sold it to somebody else. But who would want it?

    If he did sell it, I'm sure he would only get a tiny fraction of the amount he thinks he's going to get for it.

    It's sad, really.

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    iamwil is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unsaved Trash View Post
    I'm a little confused here, Wil. Please explain something to me. You've stated over yonder that you've never made a profit in TriVita. Then you go on to state this:



    I don't get it. If you've never made a profit, how could your business be worth over 50K? Example, if I owned a website with no inventory, yet I did have a few sales, and I never made a profit, what would it be worth? Nothing except maybe the name which could maybe be purchased for $25 and my client list which would obviously be worthless since I never cleared a profit from them. I'd like to hear your philosophy on this bit about how you could profit 50K from the sale of your business.
    Sorry missed the question...

    Our businesses are sold at 2-4x their annual revenue. 4x if they are consistent, long standing and growing, 2x if they are stagnant or shrinking... mostly somewhere in between.

    I am building my business, I have expenses that others may not have if they have built their business. Computers, phones, travel, hotels...it all adds up when you have a smaller volume, it becomes minimal as your volume increases. This year I've made more money...but the company is opening in Australia...I plan to use what I've made to travel to Australia and start business there. This will increase the value of my business, and I may or may not make a profit this year.

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    iamwil is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blue Wolf View Post
    It can't be worth over $50,000. I think iamwil is just making up numbers. He could have said that it's worth $75,000 or $95,000 dollars.

    I own shares of stock, and I know how much I would get if I sold them.

    I wouldn't exaggerate and say that my shares are worth $50,000 when they're worth less than $15,000.

    He wouldn't know what the real value of his little, unprofitable business is until he actually sold it to somebody else. But who would want it?

    If he did sell it, I'm sure he would only get a tiny fraction of the amount he thinks he's going to get for it.

    It's sad, really.
    Actually the company has a track record of sales. And folks waiting in line to buy them. I've had two offers over the years...we know almost exactly what they will sell for. It is all open to negotiation obviously, but from my side, I currently don't have to sell, nor do I have any interest in it.

  21. #21
    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Oh Bullshit. Your "company" as you call it is a farce. There is no company. There are no employees, no office, no equipment, nothing. You work for an MLM as a distributor. Nothing more. You have no tangible assets. You have yet to make a profit. What idiot would buy something like that? Let me guess, another MLM fellow zombie.

    Stop embarrassing yourself. Is this crap what you have to keep telling yourself so that you can even face your life and get out of bed everyday? Sad. Sad and pathetic. You have to keep propagating this bullshit to everyone you meet to keep your fantasies and the delusions alive I guess. The problem is, no one with any actual experience in owning and running a real business or anyone with any common sense believes you. Get some help. Seriously. No wonder you hang with Heiney and Chrissie. You are all brainwashed losers.

    It's fairly obvious that you don't even have a real full time job, nor do you commute to any job daily, nor do you work any 40 hour week. You sit at home on your puter day in and day out spreading lies and false bull about yourself and posting worthless drivel on the net. Even your so called "resume" is an embarassing joke and contains at least one huge lie on it.

    Why the hell do you keep lying so much? It's gotten old. Very old and more ridiculous as time passes. Have you just been doing this for so many years that you don't have a clue how to be anything by now? Just give up the charade on here, at least. Save it for the Scum forum. Oh wait, nobody believes your line of crap there either except for the other two delusional idiots that you surround yourself with. Does the truth (not your version of the truth-but the real truth) and credibility have any meaning for you whatsoever? Apparently not.

    You have invested way to much time in the illusion of "if you believe it it ill be true" and not enough time in growing up and in facing reality. The depth of your delusions is astounding. Tell me, when you used to juggle, just how many times did those big juggling clubs bonk you in the head?

  22. #22
    BruceShuell's Avatar
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    wil - are you talking about 50 grand for your Trivita biz? I just had an email from a Trivita owner in since the beginning and he says you can't 'sell' it. You can't 'buy' one from a distributor - you have to start from scratch like everyone else. Maybe I'm misunderstanding whats for sale here....
    But it's a dry heat!

  23. #23
    iamwil is offline Senior Member
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by A Life Aloft View Post
    Tell me, when you used to juggle, just how many times did those big juggling clubs bonk you in the head?
    Oh I still juggle, just not for money...or not often for money...mostly for fun. You do realize we don't juggle bowling pins don't you? 'Those big juggling clubs' are weighed in ounces not pounds...now bowling ball neck catches and head rolls that is another matter.

    Always so touching how you embrace my every word, and have such concern for my health, you'll make a good star trooper one day my young padawan.

    Quote Originally Posted by BruceShuell View Post
    wil - are you talking about 50 grand for your Trivita biz? I just had an email from a Trivita owner in since the beginning and he says you can't 'sell' it. You can't 'buy' one from a distributor - you have to start from scratch like everyone else. Maybe I'm misunderstanding whats for sale here....
    You can sell it upline and downline...you can't buy outside your organization...but that doesn't mean there aren't folks perfectly glad to take on another profit center. Say hello to your friend 'in from the beginning' I'll see him at conference in October and Honolulu and Australia in the spring!

  24. #24
    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Sorry missed the question...

    Our businesses are sold at 2-4x their annual revenue. 4x if they are consistent, long standing and growing, 2x if they are stagnant or shrinking... mostly somewhere in between.
    Bullshit again. Revenue is meaningless without decent, real, and actual large PROFITS! In your case, not profits to the MLM itself, but profits to the poor schmuck of a distributor. Who the hell would pay a dime (your 2x ridiculous example) for something that is not a real business to begin with, and is stagnant and shrinking? What the hell are you smoking? lol

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    A Life Aloft is offline fled troglodyte invasion
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    Re: Sound familiar?

    Quote Originally Posted by iamwil View Post
    Oh I still juggle, just not for money...or not often for money...mostly for fun. You do realize we don't juggle bowling pins don't you? 'Those big juggling clubs' are weighed in ounces not pounds...now bowling ball neck catches and head rolls that is another matter.
    Then certainly your Mother dropped you on your head as a baby, because you obviously have brain damage and cannot discern facts, truth and reality from fantasy and delusions. How was your "commute" (you know, the one from your bedroom to your living room) today and the "work" (the time you spend posting lies and bullshit on internet forums all day long) at your "job" (where you are a failure who has yet to make a profit at some little MLM- trying to peddle garbage to the naive) going btw? ROTFL! Only 20 posts on Scam so far today and half a dozen here. You're slipping. But it's still early and you have nothing else in your life to do, so I am confident the stats will change soon.
    Last edited by A Life Aloft; 07-29-2010 at 01:54 PM.

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