Thanks Thanks:  0
LMAO LMAO:  0
Dislikes Dislikes:  0
Ignorant Ignorant:  0
Moron Moron:  0
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 26 to 50 of 90

Thread: Watkins... a scam or not?

  1. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Internet Cafe Nigeria
    Posts
    6,476
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by therockroad View Post
    ribshaw,

    Thanks for your extensive quoting of information above.

    As to the Koscot Test:

    The participant makes a payment of money to the company;
    In exchange, the participant receives the right to sell a product (or service);
    In exchange, the participant receives compensation for recruiting others into the program;
    The compensation is unrelated to the sale of products (or services) to the ultimate user.

    To be judged a pyramid scheme, the scheme must have all four elements.



    Point 1 applies to many business opportunities including Watkins that has a $39.95 startup fee.

    Point 2 applies to most business opportunities including Watkins that allow you to purchase products and sell them.

    Point 3 does not apply to Watkins because there is no compensation for recruiting, 100% of startup fee goes to Watkins and no commissions or bonuses are paid just for recruiting. Compensation is based on retail sales not recruiting others into Watkins.

    Point 4 does not apply to Watkins because income comes from direct commissions for the sale of products or bonus income derived from the sales of sponsored consultants in a team to the ultimate user. Recruiting 5,000 people that have no sales get $0 every month.
    I believe our discussion to this point had been what constitutes "RETAIL" versus "being your own best customer" coupled with some income representations. I don't believe that I used the word "pyramid" or said that Watkins did or did not fail the Koscot test as you are presenting the opportunity.

    Point 4 tells me you either did not read what the courts have said on this issue, or you are purposely playing word games. The way you and Summit group presented it as "be your own best customer", and "no selling", violates not only Watkins T&C, but does not pass ANYTHING the courts have ruled on. Unless you can provide a higher court ruling that "self consumption" is somehow "retail" then you are wrong on 4.

    Point 3 again we are playing word games within the spirit of the law. What you described, being your "own best customer" is a closed system that does not qualify as retail sales. Perhaps if the only thing being pitched was the $39.95 membership fee I would give this a pass. Or if there was truly 70% retail sales as required by Watkins T&C, but that is NOT the way this is being presented. So the only way anyone is going to make money under the Summit Model is recruiting recruiting recruiting...

    Funny you should mention not being paid to recruit, what I have seen from tracking years of MLM is only losers who are not "plugged in" start at the basic level. What of these levels:

    Word Games.JPG

    Surely there is no compensation paid to the upline for the "winners" who plug in to the program?

    It is your business and your industry so how you present it should be of concern to you, not me. Not only is the way this is presented by some a violation of Watkins T&C, it is contrary to what courts have ruled.
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

  2. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    The upgrade assortments are a way for the new consultants to decide how they want to work their business. About 20 years ago it cost about $160 to join Watkins because the membership included a whole kit of catalogs, products, samples, home party invitations, home party forms, training manuals, a satchel to use for door-to-door sales, a Dayplanner and other items, based on the model of doing home parties and/or door-to-door sales. So if someone was not planning on having home parties they were paying for maybe $60 worth of items they were not going to use or if they didn't need a Dayplanner that was another $50 in unneeded items.

    So Watkins decided to reduce the membership fee to $39.95 which includes a basic startup kit with catalog and training materials and allows the new consultant to decide what they want for their business. If someone wants to do home parties they can add the Living Naturally Assortment that includes catalogs, home party items, samples and a party plan manual, if they want to get a wide selection of products at an extra discount (30-35% off) they can get the Watkinize Your Home or $200 Gift Certificate for $129. As stated above all are optional.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    16
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    @ ribshaw

    Slightly off topic – or maybe not.
    Used to think who the retail customer was very easy to figure out.

    A retail customer is the end user of the product and pays the sales tax (least in USA). Seamed simple.

    Am I missing something?

  4. #29
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Internet Cafe Nigeria
    Posts
    6,476
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by trader View Post
    @ ribshaw

    Slightly off topic – or maybe not.
    Used to think who the retail customer was very easy to figure out.

    A retail customer is the end user of the product and pays the sales tax (least in USA). Seamed simple.

    Am I missing something?
    Actually, I think this is a great point and adds to the discussion on several fronts. Keeping in mind, these are my observations based on my understanding of the law(s), and I am not Judge Judy, although being scolded in her courtroom might put a smile on my face.

    While "Tax Law" is a good indicator of how someone operates their business, payment of tax does not necessarily make a business legal. For instance under US Tax Law ALL profits are to be taxed, regardless of activity. A drug dealer is supposed to file a return and pay taxes. Second, Tax accounting can be different than accounting using GAAP and that is perfectly acceptable under the law. Both of these things to say, I don't know that compliance with "Tax Law" does or doesn't pass the test under "Pyramid Law".

    In CA "Retail sale." Sales And Use Tax Law - Section 6007

    A "retail sale" or "sale at retail" means a sale for any purpose other than resale in the regular course of business in the form of tangible personal property.


    Under that definition "self consumption" would qualify as a retail sale. The distributor would be required under the law (as I am reading it) to pay the sales tax on their purchase. If the upline/company has Substantial Nexus in the state were the distributor lives, they would be required to collect and submit the tax.

    ================================================== ===
    There are a few items here of interest. I doubt any revenue departments are going to hunt someone down over tax on one box of soap. BUT if an affiliate is doing substantial volume, or taking substantial losses on a tax return, then having their ducks in a row starts to matter.

    Retail sales tax legal definition of Retail sales tax. Retail sales tax synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

    The vast majority of states impose sales taxes on their residents. The only exceptions are Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon.

    Even if an out-of-state retailer is not required to pay sales taxes within a state, the purchaser is nevertheless required to pay the sales tax on goods and services purchased through the Internet or by mail order.

    The U.S. Supreme Court has addressed the issue of states requiring out-of-state retailers to pay sales taxes on several occasions. In Complete Auto Transit, Inc. v. Brady, 430 U.S. 274, 97 S. Ct. 1076, 51 L. Ed. 2d 326 (1977), the Court required a showing of a "substantial nexus" between a taxing state and the company providing goods and services before the taxing state can require the company to pay taxes. Without this substantial nexus, a state that taxes an outof-state retailer has violated the Commerce Clause of the U.S. Constitution.

    ================================================== ===

    There is some good information here, some not necessarily germane to the discussion of "retail", but important as I see a lot of BAD tax information passed down from uplines on tax issues.

    Retail Industry ATG - Chapter 3: Examination Techniques for Specific Industries (Direct Sellers)

    Like this chestnut:
    Some direct sellers erroneously think they can decorate their home with products and deduct the cost as a business expense. To be deductible under IRC Section 162, the expense must be an ordinary and necessary expense paid or incurred in carrying on a trade or business (also see Regulation 1.162-3). Under IRC Section 262, no deduction generally is allowed for personal, living, or family expenses.


    All income that is received as a result of direct sales is taxable under IRC Section 61 and should be reported as gross receipts. There is a misconception that if the income is not reported on Form 1099-MISC it is not taxable. Direct sellers may receive income in several different forms, including:

    Income from sales - these are payments received from their customers for product purchases.
    Commissions, bonuses, or percentages of income received as a result of sales from others who work under them (commonly referred to as their “down-line”).
    Prizes and awards received from the selling business, taxable under IRC Section 74.
    Income also includes products received as a result of meeting certain sales quotas (for example, receiving all products displayed on the front page of the new catalogue in exchange for selling at a certain level for that month).
    Typically, the hostess, not the direct seller, receives gifts. However, gifts received by the direct seller are considered payments to help the direct seller make sales. The fair market value of these gifts must be reported as income under IRC Section 61.

    According to this, the INCOME received is taxable whether it is based on commissions from personal purchases, or sales to those outside the network.

    It is important to remember that compensation in a direct seller marketing plan is derived primarily from the sale of consumer products to ultimate consumers and users. Ultimate consumers include those direct sellers who purchase products for their personal, family, or household use. No compensation is earned merely from the act of recruiting additional participants to the plan.

    ================================================== ===

    From a TAX standpoint, it is pretty clear to me that if someone earns commission from a sale to themselves for "self consumption" it is taxable. Does that necessarily mean that it qualifies as "RETAIL" to avoid "Pyramid Laws" that is not as clear. It may very well be a question of degree when and IF evaluated by the SEC or FTC.

    As most folks know there are laws on the books and standards set by the industry that are all but ignored. Or as previously mentioned in this thread, the company gets affiliates to sign a T&C saying they will comply, and then since they are "independent contractors" they can be easily dismissed as not representing the company.

    Amway Safeguard Rules, i.e. "Amway Rules" have 3 rules A (MLM) Skeptic: MLM Dictionary: Amway Safeguard Rules

    1) "Ten Retail Sales Rule" -- if you don't make ten sales to ten separate people, you are NOT qualified to earn any downline commissions.

    2) "70% rule" -- You have to sell 70% of what you previously ordered before you are allowed to re-order.

    3) "Buyback policy" -- Amway will buyback any inventory you want to return within 6 months, at 90% or higher of the price you paid.

    ================================================== ===

    Here is what the DSA a lobbying group for the MLM industry says on on RETAIL.

    Compensation must primarily be based on the sale of products and services to the ultimate consumer—whether or not that consumer is also a seller of the products.

    Direct Selling Association | The Direct Selling Association Responds to Questions about the Purchase of Products by Direct Salespeople | DSA

    This is where many take issue with the DSA and its "Code of Ethics", keeping in mind they have had several members not dismissed by the DSA, but brought to justice by the government. And this is a bit of doublespeak that occurs. As the "own best customer" tends to make a market sound a little bigger and easier than it is to truly make money.

    http://www.dsa.org/ethics/legitimatecompanies.pdf

    Pyramid schemes take advantage of and defraud people because they:

    Promise large earnings with little effort.

    Promise that one can earn a substantial income merely for recruiting people into the operation

    ================================================== ===

    I went off in a few directions as I do from time to time., on a day when I have several tax returns I am putting off doing myself. I pulled searches from Amazon and EBAY which are undisputed retail sales in my mind. As for the sales tax issue, the seller would collect the tax or the purchaser is supposed to pay the tax in most states. Best guess, neither of these things are happening in most transactions, not just MLM. So as a legal definition of "retail" I am not sure, but as a "tax" definition clearly.

    To do what Herbalife is doing where they run ads teasing of massive work from home income, load people up with $5,000 of virtually unsellable milkshakes, and then repeat. That is a a pyramid, whether they collect sales tax or not. What Summit is doing mentioning large incomes and no selling, is at minimum a violation of the Watkins T&C, the DSA Standards for Pyramids, and is dishonest. 870 sales on EBAY if not massive competition makes me wonder if there is not some inventory loading going on and in that case I would put forth there are groups operating not as "buyers clubs", but illegal pyramids.



    EBAY.JPG
    Amazon.JPG
    Last edited by ribshaw; 04-06-2014 at 01:40 PM.
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

  5. Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post
  6. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    ribshaw,

    Thanks for your contribution above.

    As to your last few lines:

    What Summit is doing mentioning large incomes and no selling, is at minimum a violation of the Watkins T&C, the DSA Standards for Pyramids, and is dishonest. 870 sales on EBAY if not massive competition makes me wonder if there is not some inventory loading going on and in that case I would put forth there are groups operating not as "buyers clubs", but illegal pyramids.

    The mentioning of large incomes was from a 3rd party blog, though it is accurate that the most successful leaders in Watkins make 6 figure incomes as Watkins itself publishes average incomes for various leaders and the average for Gold Executive is $258,000. Being that this is a statement of a company established average income and not a projection it does not violate Watkins policy. As to Summit's current business opportunity site there are no income numbers.

    Watkins policy no longer allows consultants to sell on eBay or Amazon, so items sold are either by 3rd parties that purchase products from Watkins or Walmart that they are reselling or for those consultants who were selling on eBay or Amazon before the change that are liquidating merchandise.

  7. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Internet Cafe Nigeria
    Posts
    6,476
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by therockroad View Post
    ribshaw,

    Thanks for your contribution above.

    As to your last few lines:

    What Summit is doing mentioning large incomes and no selling, is at minimum a violation of the Watkins T&C, the DSA Standards for Pyramids, and is dishonest. 870 sales on EBAY if not massive competition makes me wonder if there is not some inventory loading going on and in that case I would put forth there are groups operating not as "buyers clubs", but illegal pyramids.

    The mentioning of large incomes was from a 3rd party blog, though it is accurate that the most successful leaders in Watkins make 6 figure incomes as Watkins itself publishes average incomes for various leaders and the average for Gold Executive is $258,000. Being that this is a statement of a company established average income and not a projection it does not violate Watkins policy. As to Summit's current business opportunity site there are no income numbers.

    Watkins policy no longer allows consultants to sell on eBay or Amazon, so items sold are either by 3rd parties that purchase products from Watkins or Walmart that they are reselling or for those consultants who were selling on eBay or Amazon before the change that are liquidating merchandise.
    Overall here is my thought, then I seriously need to get to taxes or I will be blogging from the prison library. The product that I used seemed to be quality, I remember the foot cream and think I purchased a few other items at Target. If someone "self consumes" and truly likes and uses the product then great. If people sell at flea markets, home shows, house parties, or on the internet, nothing wrong with that. I would fully expect a person's income from selling to be in direct proportion to their skill level and market.

    As to the income numbers, I have no doubt they are accurate, in any MLM some people will make massive incomes. The question then becomes HOW they make that money, and can a RECRUIT reasonably expect to make anything similar. I may have 4 tubes of toothpaste at my house from the warehouse club, I don't have 400. As you know with a lot of MLM, folks have garages full product, that ends up on EBAY. (Let's not even start down the tool and seminar money pit) So are the incomes from consumers or people who were puffed up? My suspicion, and it is just that is it could be both. The question then becomes, does Watkins or any other MLM police itself of the bad apples? What I have seen with the industry, the answer is no.

    As for "Flipping Walmart", let's not kid each other, I don't know that too many people bought product at Walmart with plans to resell it. My sinking feeling is they were loaded up with product by overzealous uplines and are just trying to get something back out. ANY product based MLM on EBAY almost always has a bunch for sale, and some have company bans on selling. A potential recruit may ask themselves why the ban??

    If I were to look around, I might find someone who makes 6 figures a year selling vacuum cleaners door to door. They may even love what they do and can think of no other profession they would have. Most of us would last a few days in that job, and even a skilled salesperson might have problems hitting that number. So is it honest to imply a recruit can make 6 figures selling vacuums? Dunno.

    It is a matter of presentation and what I said was "mentioning large incomes and no selling, is at minimum a violation of the Watkins T&C". The likelyhood of "self consuming", getting others to do the same, and earning six figures, less than 1%, if that. That holds true across all MLM, not just Watkins, with an income of $50 a month much more typical. I pretty much am a give people the information and let them decide from there type of person. Summit did disclose that, but at the bottom in small print, but what else is new, virtually every company does similar, so consumers need to be on their toes.
    Last edited by ribshaw; 04-06-2014 at 03:10 PM. Reason: putting off taxes
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

  8. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Posts
    3,481
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by therockroad View Post
    ribshaw,

    Thanks for your contribution above.

    As to your last few lines:

    What Summit is doing mentioning large incomes and no selling, is at minimum a violation of the Watkins T&C, the DSA Standards for Pyramids, and is dishonest. 870 sales on EBAY if not massive competition makes me wonder if there is not some inventory loading going on and in that case I would put forth there are groups operating not as "buyers clubs", but illegal pyramids.

    The mentioning of large incomes was from a 3rd party blog, though it is accurate that the most successful leaders in Watkins make 6 figure incomes as Watkins itself publishes average incomes for various leaders and the average for Gold Executive is $258,000. Being that this is a statement of a company established average income and not a projection it does not violate Watkins policy. As to Summit's current business opportunity site there are no income numbers.

    Watkins policy no longer allows consultants to sell on eBay or Amazon, so items sold are either by 3rd parties that purchase products from Watkins or Walmart that they are reselling or for those consultants who were selling on eBay or Amazon before the change that are liquidating merchandise.
    It makes no difference how many ways you try to state this, it can be summed up simply that the long-standing and reliable company of Watkins products is now going to be just another MLM. Then end result does not look good and if you question that, look at the trouble many of the top MLM pyramids are in at present.
    Don't get ripped off!! Stay informed!

  9. #33
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Scratchycat,

    No worries about Watkins, it has had a network marketing structure for almost 40 years and has continued to offer the best in products and business opportunity. Watkins is a product focused direct sales company as it has been since J.R. Watkins started the company in 1868 and continues today with the focus on the products (we have about 300 more than J.R. did when he started with our Pain Relieving Liniment (which we still sell and is the pain relieving liniment used by the St. Louis Cardinals).

  10. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    therockroad,

    we can go 'round and 'round the mulberry bush all day and half the night discussing what Watkins is, was, should be and was intended to be, the fact remains it has been infiltrated by "The Summit Group" and now contains elements of a get-rich-quick pyramid / endless chain recruiting scheme

    If that's what Watkins wants, fair enough.

    I'm sure its' recruitment levels will rise, at least in the short term, as the usual suspect get-rich-quickers move in and recruit their little heads off.

    HOWEVER, I can guarantee you the hard earned Watkins name and reputation will take a hit as those potential new recruits seeking a sustainable home based business realize they are competing with recruitment oriented get-rich-quickers.

    Again, if that is what you / they want, good luck to you all.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  11. #35
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    littleroundman,

    I don't know where you are getting this "get-rich-quick" idea. Those who are making the upper incomes in Watkins have been working their businesses for 20-30 years or more and they will tell you that. For those seeking a substantial income they need to be willing to work their business for the long haul.

    The information that you came across from Christene is not reflective of The Summit Group's current material as referenced in a post on the first page where there is no mention of income amounts.

  12. #36
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    littleroundman,

    The Summit Group is the name of the team of Watkins consultants under the leadership of a Watkins Executive, like the other teams in Watkins. The Summit Group leaders have nearly 25 years in Watkins and are highly respected in the Watkins business. All The Summit Group is doing is highlighting the network marketing aspect of the Watkins business, which has had a network marketing based bonus program for nearly 40 years.

    If someone is looking for a get-rick-quick program Watkins is not for them. If someone needs money today I will be happy to suggest that they go get a job at Walmart or Target. If you want to take the time to build a business through seeing Watkins products get into more homes in USA and Canada and are willing to work your business for the long haul then Watkins is a way to earn income now and build income for the future.

    As I have said before there is no benefit to recruiting without products being sold, so someone could signup 5,000 people on their team with no sales and get $0 every month, so those seeking a sustainable home business have nothing to fear. Unless products are being sold there is no income in Watkins. The products are primary and any income is derived from products leaving Watkins distribution center.

  13. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Perhaps we should take a vote.

    Does this look like a dignified, long established, product based direct selling organizations' web page or does it look like just another recruitment based overhyped and misleading Multi Level Marketing companies' website, complete with exaggerated earnings claims and inference of luxury lifestyle ??

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  14. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Internet Cafe Nigeria
    Posts
    6,476
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    Perhaps we should take a vote.
    No selling is ever required!! Still violating Watkins T&C with impunity.

    Dobule thumbs down.JPG

    Quote Originally Posted by littleroundman View Post
    Does this look like a dignified, long established, product based direct selling organizations' web page or does it look like just another recruitment based overhyped and misleading Multi Level Marketing companies' website, complete with exaggerated earnings claims and inference of luxury lifestyle ??
    I would like to see what the math behind $941 per month is if you are up for it Rockroad. Frankly $100 per month seems a bit high for consumer goods each month, unless folks are buying premium. How many people are going to pay $8 for hand cream when they can pay $4, or even $6 if they call themselves a business owner? A buck fiddy in the hole for each tube of lotion factoring in commission seems like a tough hurdle to building wealth.

    Hand Cream.JPG
    Hand Cream1.JPG

    The be your own best customer is the model Amway has used for years, and each year 1% make real money, and 99% don't. So 50-100K drop out each year knowing something, despite "better quality concentrated" products they just don't see the value proposition or income claims materialize. In fact, with few exceptions "OBC" is the model for almost every MLM, with a similar income skew.
    As soon as I can buy product for less than retail as my own best customer, get the keys for my BMW ready! Until then there are just not that many products that I find worth paying a bunch of levels of commission on the illusion that I will be Living the RV lifestyle with Al Sills.
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

  15. #39
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    littleroundman,

    The above is not an official Summit Group page but an individual's page that decided to make what looks like a hyped business op page. They must figured that would work for them.

    This ad is just a demonstration of the power of building a team. It is possible under this plan to make $941 per month based on a team of 82 members purchasing $117 per month in products. So this is $9,594 per month in Watkins products being sold and Watkins pays the team leader $941. As always the focus is moving Watkins products from Winona, MN to all points in the USA and Canada and if you help Watkins do that they will pay you commissions.

    Being that most people that join Watkins join because they love the products and wouldn't mind some part-time income, a plan to make $941 per month helping others get the best products for their home and earn some extra income I would imagine would be seen as a good thing to them.
    Last edited by therockroad; 04-08-2014 at 01:26 PM.

  16. #40
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    ribshaw,

    The claim to "no selling required" is not a violation of Watkins T&C given that the intent of the rule is to prohibit product purchases just to qualify for income or awards, for example purchasing 500 bottles of Vanilla Extract to be Salesman of the Month. As long as products are purchased to be used by an end consumer the rule is satisfied.

    The easiest way to explain the $941 is that it is roughly 10% of the $9,594 monthly sales generated by a team of 82 based on the team leader sponsoring 9 people that sponsor 4 people that sponsor 1 person all purchasing 100 points in products per month (about $1.17 per point - $117 per month - $87.75 consultant price - 25% discount).

    If you are committed to using as many Watkins products as you can in your home it is easy to purchase the 100 points in this plan. I would imagine most families are already buying from someone else at least 200 points of Watkins products per month including food items, household cleaners, laundry detergent, vitamins and dietary supplements, body care and remedy products (cold/flu and pain relief).

  17. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Internet Cafe Nigeria
    Posts
    6,476
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by therockroad View Post
    ribshaw,

    The claim to "no selling required" is not a violation of Watkins T&C given that the intent of the rule is to prohibit product purchases just to qualify for income or awards, for example purchasing 500 bottles of Vanilla Extract to be Salesman of the Month. As long as products are purchased to be used by an end consumer the rule is satisfied.
    While me enjoys the discussion, Watkins put out what I affectionately call VOCAB CHOICES. It seems pretty clear to me that "NO SELLING" is not preferred vernacular, and if Watkins wasn't bothered with that specific choice of words they would have kept mum. Additionally, while "recruiting" others may not technically be "selling", can you think of a better adjective?

    Vocab Choices.JPG



    Quote Originally Posted by therockroad View Post
    The easiest way to explain the $941 is that it is roughly 10% of the $9,594 monthly sales generated by a team of 82 based on the team leader sponsoring 9 people that sponsor 4 people that sponsor 1 person all purchasing 100 points in products per month (about $1.17 per point - $117 per month - $87.75 consultant price - 25% discount).

    If you are committed to using as many Watkins products as you can in your home it is easy to purchase the 100 points in this plan. I would imagine most families are already buying from someone else at least 200 points of Watkins products per month including food items, household cleaners, laundry detergent, vitamins and dietary supplements, body care and remedy products (cold/flu and pain relief).
    Now we are getting somewhere.

    Can you provide some insight into how many join each and how many leave each year?

    Of those that initially join how many reach a downline of 82 and an income of $941?

    $941 is a little under 19 times what they "typical" affiliate earns so what percentage of total distributors earn this?

    Of those that make $941 or more, how many years do they have in?

    ====================================


    You (and others in MLM) make it sound simple to just REPLACE what you are already buying, and that is the hook for many. BUT if people were so enthralled with just being their own best customer, then the turnover would be very low, even if people did not recruit. In reality, MLM industry turnover approaches 100% over five years, who knew buying toothpaste from yourself could be so challenging?

    I pulled two weeks of receipts from the warehouse and spent about $150 each week. BUT most of that was food, some fresh some processed. Diaper cream, drain cleaner, and hand sanitizer mark the products I would consider for self consumption, or about $30 of that $300. Some weeks it may be more, as for Vanilla Extract, I still have the bottle I inherited from my great Aunt in 72.
    What I don't see in practice is folks getting into MLM that are in an near identical situation and finding out they can do the "same" $300 in shopping for $250. They find the same $300 now costs $500 even with all the perks. So the only way they can get even is if they can convince 80 others who can convince 80 others.
    Last edited by ribshaw; 04-08-2014 at 04:25 PM.
    "It's virtually impossible to violate rules ... but it's impossible for a violation to go undetected, certainly not for a considerable period of time." Bernie Madoff
    https://www.facebook.com/pages/Scam-...98399986981403

  18. #42
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    ribshaw,

    no selling is REQUIRED, you can join Watkins and never sell anything. there are many MLM's that require sales to stay active like Tupperware ($450 quarterly) or Longaberger ($1000 per year) or required monthly drop shipments which Watkins has no required orders and no minimum orders/sales. If you want to join just to buy Watkins vanilla or cinnamon each year to make your Christmas cookies and maybe buy some gifts that is ok. This is the case for most people that join Watkins they are happy to get their Watkins products for 25% off and maybe sell some vanilla extract to the ladies at church or at the local flea market. In reality everyone sells, everyone who lets people know they are with Watkins is going to find people that use Watkins vanilla or bought a hand creme at Walmart and order products.

    The 9-4-1 plan is just a mathematical example of what can be done by team building which is just one way of earning income with Watkins along with catalog sharing, flea markets, home parties, online sales, etc.

    Most people have no interest in team building or the work it requires to do the contacting of people, followup calls, once they join to get them trained and help them build their business. Most people know of Watkins from the Watkins man that rode up on a horse like my great grandfather or someone like Bill Porter that walked their neighborhood selling door-to-door and think that Watkins is still a door-to-door sales model and this shows another way to earn income with Watkins that does not require walking 10 miles a day carrying a sample case like Bill Porter.

    Watkins products are competitively priced at suggested retail price, especially given that we have personal care and home care products on store shelves. As a Watkins consultant you get 25-39% off these prices. If you purchase products at a dollar store then Watkins products will cost more even at 39% off.

    It is not really difficult to buy Watkins detergent and stop buying Tide; buying Watkins spices and leave the McCormick spices on the store shelves; buying Watkins Daily Vitamin rather than One-A-Day. As you need an item Watkins sells you order it, for products you use every month you can place an order each month for all the items you use regularly to keep stocked. This is what I did, I took my first Watkins order and went around my home and replaced all the products from Watkins for the other brands and when I need something Watkins sells I order it.

    If someone is buying what they need then they are not going to as you say spend $500 on $300 in store bought products, at 39% off they can purchase $300 in products $183. There is not a reason to purchase more than you need for your family's use so no worries.

  19. #43
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    littleroundman,

    As to the ad you found, there are no income claims only mathematical figures based on an illustration of a concept of having one person sponsor 9 people, that sponsor 4 people, that sponsor 1 person and each purchases $117 in products in one month and based on Watkins income plan this works out to $941 in earnings on the month. Subsequently if each of the 9 people that you sponsored at first were to sponsor 9 people, that sponsored 4 people, that sponsored 1 person and everyone purchased $117 in products you can make $5,716 in a month. This is just a mathematical illustration of network marketing, nothing more. It seems kind of exaggerated on your part to see the possibility of making $941 a month (less than minimum wage pay) as some extravagance.

    As to being product based to earn that $941 you had to see that $9,594 in Watkins products were sold. Kind of reminds me when my father who worked for Volvo sold a car that the Volvo dealer would pay him a portion of the car's price. The example sponsor that sees that $9,594 in Watkins products are being sold in a month gets a portion of those sales which comes to $941.
    For the example of $5,716 you have helped Watkins sell $85,410 in products in a month.

    Selling the products is king and Watkins rewards people for selling products. If someone would want to go it alone and sell $9,594 in products in a month they can earn up to 39% or $3,741.66.
    Last edited by therockroad; 04-08-2014 at 06:30 PM. Reason: Math fix

  20. #44
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?



    Hey, if you and / or Watkins want to use that sort of misleading spin doctoring language, more power to you.

    It's no skin off my nose, and, you'll probably attract enough of the "get-rich-quick" crowd to make it worthwhile, at least in the short term.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  21. #45
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    littleroundman,

    It appears that you don't read anything I write and just use your comeback "weasel words" and somehow that is to shutoff discussion.

    As I have said before if someone wants to get rich quick Watkins is not for them. If someone tells me they need to make $2,500 next month in their Watkins business I will suggest they go get a job and if they want to order products I will be here for them.

    You have found 2 unofficial Summit Group pages and have made your own weasel assumptions about Summit and Watkins.

    Though they derive accurate information that the MOST SUCCESSFUL ASSOCIATES, Watkins Gold Executives have an average income of $258,000 (this is direct from Watkins Corporate). You seemed to have completely missed that the same material said many do not make anything just buy wholesale and others make a few hundred dollars per month. Those who are the most successful have worked their business for 20 plus years and have trained and mentored thousands of people and have seen that tens of millions of dollars of Watkins products have been sold.

    The 9-4-1 Model is just a demonstration of team building.

    By building a team the point is to help Watkins sell more products. The company was founded on team building, J.R. Watkins was one guy and a horse with a pain relieving liniment that he sold around Minnesota, he came to realize that if he built a team of other people to sell his products throughout all of the Midwest he could make more money then just by himself, so he began the direct sales business and that is still the only point to team building is to sell more Watkins products and Watkins rewards those who sell Watkins products with commissions and bonuses.

  22. #46
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by therockroad View Post
    littleroundman,

    It appears that you don't read anything I write and just use your comeback "weasel words" and somehow that is to shutoff discussion.
    On the contrary, I read everything you write intently.

    As for how it "appears" to you, that is down to you.

    Your (and Summit Groups') continued usage of weasel words only serves to reinforce my point, so I have absolutely no desire to "shutoff discussion"

    Now we have finally managed to drag out of you that the pages I have reproduced here are, in your words, "2 unofficial Summit Group pages"

    (Note my usage of the words: "REPRODUCED here")

    The reason I prefer to use screenshots is it eliminates any chance of being accused of editing or misinterpreting the subject under discussion, and readers can decide for themselves whether or not"weasel words" are being used or whether the screen shot conveys "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth" without the need for further explanation.

    If you think the Summit Group is accurately depicting the Watkins experience, fine, discussion over.

    You may be part of that group which considers the "end justifies the means" when it comes to truth in advertising and that is your right

    Personally, though, I have a strong objection to what I consider to be the deliberate usage of the "weasel words" more often associated with get-rich-quick pseudo MLMs than old, established direct selling organizations.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  23. #47
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    littleroundman,

    The christene blog appears to be a blog by the woman named christene that if you look she wrote posts on about 6 other businesses so it appears that she had a short lived blog looking at business opportunities. To the best of my knowledge she has no connection to Watkins or The Summit Group.

    The other sites appear to be defunct websites by people that may have been associated with The Summit Group. After further review they violate Watkins policy for not having the required disclosures and I will forward the url's to Watkins Corporate for review.

    I am lost to your use of the phrase "weasel words" in relation to me and your broad brushing of me and the whole Watkins business and The Summit Group for some websites that you found that I have said are not authorized or reflective of Watkins or The Summit Group's business presentation.

    As to the official Income page from The Summit Group site:

    Screen Shot 2014-04-01 at 10.52.08 PM.jpg

  24. #48
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by therockroad
    I am lost to your use of the phrase "weasel words" in relation to me and your broad brushing of me and the whole Watkins business and The Summit Group
    Ummm,

    perhaps in response to the original posters' query, I did a Google search for "Watkins" and "Summit Group" and responded accordingly.

    It's pretty simple, really.

    You keep quoting chapter and verse of what Watkins representatives "shoulda, coulda, woulda" be doing and I am relying on the evidence of my own eyes.

    Only now are we seeing: "After further review they violate Watkins policy for not having the required disclosures and I will forward the url's to Watkins Corporate for review"

    I don't have to apply any judgement or personal feelings, the screen grab makes my point for me, just like anyone else researching Watkins and / or the Summit group.

    Try it yourself, pretend your an internet newbie and ask Mr Google "summit group watkins" and you'll find the "christene-marketing webite right at the top of the search results

    Then we find:

    Who is the Summit Group and how are they linked to Watkins?

    Watkins associates are divided into teams and the largest and the most successful team is called the Summit Group. They offer free support and training for all new Watkins associates and have an impressive record of Accomplishment for 20 years in helping people to succeed with the work-from-home Business.
    and the first clickable link in the article is: Summit Group which brings us to ItsWorkFromHome.com and its' nonsense
    Work fro
    m home and Get Paid for what you are already doing!




    We will show you and help you to successfully build and operate your own profitable work from home business, take control of your life and your future!
    An Easy Work from Home Business
    that pays for what you are already doing!!



    • You already do it! Why not get paid?!
    • No Selling is ever required!
    • Start Part Time at your own pace
    • You never have any required meetings to attend
    • You do not have to purchase any inventory
    • We will help you with time proven business building strategies - all Free!
    • FREE Stuff! Free training, Free support, Free Residual Income building tools and much more!
    Simple, really
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

  25. #49
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Posts
    38
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    If you look further christene is a blogger that writes reviews of many companies. She chose to review Watkins and found a member maybe from Mr. Google that had Summit Group on their site.

    It sounds more like you are the internet newbie, do you get your news from The Onion if it happens to be at the top of Mr. Google?

    The reason I came to this site was to counter the incorrect information out there about Watkins and The Summit Group in hopes that Mr. Google will find my words and not christene or this "work from home" site.

    Just because someone has a url that says Summit Group does not make them The Summit Group site, lest we forget all the people who went to whitehouse.com looking for information on the President and found a porn site.

    And I have contacted Watkins Corporate to review the above site. Given that christene is an independent blogger, Watkins has no say over her and their is that 1st amendment, so her review may have to stay.

    It's interesting when I went to Mr. Google and put in "Watkins Summit Group" the top link was the official Summit Group training site. Maybe Mr. Google is coming around...This list shows the official Summit Group training site (tsgnet.com), the official Facebook Page and a team members official Summit Group info site (tsginfo.com).

    Screen Shot 2014-04-09 at 12.57.07 AM.jpg

  26. #50
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    19,835
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Watkins... a scam or not?

    Once again, round and 'round the mulberry bush we go:



    First 5 results on a Google search: "watkins summit group"

    Result #1 which leads to the "rogue Watkins representative" site

    Result #2 which leads to a 2011 post making exactly the point being discussed here


    As I have said before, if that's the way both you and Watkins want to be seen, fair enough, just stay here and argue until the cows come home.

    On the other hand, if both you and Watkins were pro active instead of argumentative, you'd get off your lazy as*** and do something about it.

    Here's my problem in a nutshell.

    I DO admire Watkins and I DO know its' history and I DO want to see it being successful, instead of being lumped in with the squillion other pseudo MLMs which currently infest the internet.

    So, instead of rationalizing, justifying and laying blame on others, how about you and Watkins get your collective heads together and do something to fix the situation, or, on the other hand, admit that's how you want it and shut the hell up when people point it out.
    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •