Thread: Watkins... a scam or not?

Originally Posted by therockroad

As to Summit's current business opportunity site there are no income numbers.

YEAH, other than representing the 5% ish... Not some random blogger, but the top group.

Top Earners.JPG


The Summit Group training site, from Steve Bretzke (independent Watkins consultant #046832)

Originally Posted by therockroad

no selling is REQUIRED, you can join Watkins and never sell anything.

Yes, and you will never EARN ANYTHING. That is what I (and suspect much of ribshaw nation consider doublespeak), telling folks they can earn $941 and they never have to sell. It is like you telling me I can earn $1million as a senior partner in a major law firm, then whisper, but not if you don't pass the bar, work for 30 years, and prove yourself to be in the top 1%.

It is ONE or the OTHER, you can't have it both ways and remain credible.

Originally Posted by therockroad

Watkins products are competitively priced at suggested retail price, especially given that we have personal care and home care products on store shelves. As a Watkins consultant you get 25-39% off these prices.
buying Watkins Daily Vitamin rather than One-A-Day.

If someone is buying what they need then they are not going to as you say spend $500 on $300 in store bought products, at 39% off they can purchase $300 in products $183.

I say prove it. It is pretty simple, put up a grocery list. Everything I have seen so far has led me to conclude that Watkins has the same problem with the OBC model as every other MLM.

Even with the lauded 39% discount...

multivitamin.jpg

I am still paying more for a 90 day supply, than I am a 200 day supply of...

One A day.JPG

Hell, even these guys at retail....

Amway.JPG

littleroundman,

I think that our discussion has about come to a close but I would like to point out again that you above completely skipped over the official Summit Group page and the official Summit Group Facebook page and choose 3 links that fit your narrative.

Christene is an independent blogger that writes reviews of business opportunities and in no way connected to Watkins or The Summit Group. If you go to her site she has reviewed dozens of companies. I don't imagine that she is a member of the dozens of companies that she reviewed. It appears that she is involved in some "pay to blog" business and gets paid for each post she writes, so this is her business. She is also in 1152 Google+ links so being a hardcore Google+ user she is going to be at the top or near the top all the time. It is interesting that the link to the "work from home" site has no presence in this Google listing, just the link for christene. Again given the first amendment I don't see how Watkins or The Summit Group can have Christene remove her review.

The inquiry on the second link is answered on the site by Steve Bretzke, Summit Group founder. You may not like his answers but he dealt with the concerns back in 2011.

Though a little dated and hokey, the above video is actually focused primarily on the value and quality of the Watkins products and the business opportunity tied to getting the products in your home.

ribshaw,

People looking to start a business want to know what they can make in a business so Watkins posts average incomes. These are not projections or wild made up numbers but actual averages of MID-TO-HIGH LEVEL leaders. Should people have no idea what can be made in the business? It would seem that disclosure of actual income earned in a business is a good thing.

Originally Posted by therockroad

ribshaw,

People looking to start a business want to know what they can make in a business so Watkins posts average incomes. These are not projections or wild made up numbers but actual averages of MID-TO-HIGH LEVEL leaders. Should people have no idea what can be made in the business? It would seem that disclosure of actual income earned in a business is a good thing.

Yes, which is why it should be so troubling for potential recruits that you continue to not deal with the elephant(s) in the room. $50 a month is the most likely idea of what they will be grossing if they are even around in five years. This is standard for MLM for all the reasons that have been highlighted. There are still plenty of serious questions in the thread that are unanswered that would also be a good thing to put on the table.

I like all the stuff about selling spices to old ladies for XMAS cookies and shopping from my couch, BUT people also have limited time to get things right and make money for their family. From what I have seen so far this is NO different than any other MLM, and 99% will be better served taking a second job, paying down debt, investing when they are caught up on bills, and buying their laundry soap at the warehouse club.

To become a mid-level to high-level leader takes time and effort, much like becoming a mid-level to high-level leader in most businesses. A person who gets a job stocking shelves at Walmart is going to take time and effort and years of work to become a store manager or executive where they will make far more than they make at part time minimum wage.

As I have said the $50 average comes from the many people that join Watkins just to be a wholesale customer and buy all the products they love at 25% off, the product discount is what they seek from being a Watkins consultant. These people are happy to have the products they love at a discount and if a friend needs a bottle of vanilla they can sell it to them too and make a few bucks.

If someone does not have the time to build a business then it's great for them to get a job and I am happy to tell someone that needs $1000 in 2 weeks to pay their rent that they need to go to Walmart or Target today and get a job.

What are your other serious questions that need answers at 24 posts so far I think I have been pretty transparent...

Originally Posted by therockroad

littleroundman,

I think that our discussion has about come to a close.

Well, I'm glad you think that.

I'll just continue on my own, shall I ??

With your kind permission, of course.

@rockroad

May I ask you what your personal plans are?

Do you just buy products for yourself at a discount? Or, are you tring to make some money? If so, will you sell vanilla (or whatever) at full price to some people to make some money like you described?

Do you plan to do 10pv to a 100 people?

100pv to 10 people?

Char,

I am building my Watkins business focused on team building and doing sales to customers. Yes, I sell at the retail price to customers. My plan is to see the most Watkins products sold in the USA and Canada that I can help to happen so I am focused in finding new people to use and share Watkins products with others and to offer them the training and mentorship they need to build their businesses.

Originally Posted by therockroad

Char,

I am building my Watkins business focused on team building and doing sales to customers. Yes, I sell at the retail price to customers. My plan is to see the most Watkins products sold in the USA and Canada that I can help to happen so I am focused in finding new people to use and share Watkins products with others and to offer them the training and mentorship they need to build their businesses.

What is your preference, 10pv and 100 customers or 100pv and 10 customers?

What is your average retail sale dollar amount/pv per month? Does it vary monthly? How so?

How much is your order per month for yourself?

FTR, I think you are being genuine here regarding your belief in this venture.

Also, silly question, but where do you buy your toilet paper?

Char,

My preference is for more Watkins products to be sold. Both add up to 1000PV, so no real difference.

Sales and order amounts vary based on customer use of products. My personal order of products also is dependent on how much products I use.

Thanks for your FTR comment. Being that I have an 80+ year connection to Watkins in my family from my great-grandfather who was a Watkins man in the horse and wagon days during the Depression and my cousin who sold Watkins in the early 80's to support her family, Watkins is a part of my family history and the products have been in my family's home and kitchens for these many years.

Usually get toilet paper at Smart and Final or Costco.

How much of the 1000pv per month is to retail only customers i.e. not in the system?

On average, how much pv/dollar amount is your personal use each month?

Each month is different, so it is hard to say, with no minimum orders and no required autoships that give consistent sales volume each month can and will be different.

Originally Posted by therockroad

Watkins is a part of my family history and the products have been in my family's home and kitchens for these many years.

Would you refuse to date someone who only used Burt's Bees?

On a serious note, is Target no longer carrying Watkins in store? The first post of this thread indicated Walmart no longer had a contract with them? I was at Target today in the area where I thought I had purchased items before, it was filled with Bees. If this is the case, are they trying to move to a complete MLM/Distributor model?

Originally Posted by therockroad

Each month is different, so it is hard to say, with no minimum orders and no required autoships that give consistent sales volume each month can and will be different.

What about the other question?

Minimum orders and required auto ships would pertain to people plugged in.

How much of the 1000pv per month is to retail only customers i.e. not in the system? (on average)

Stores are changing their product mix all the time. Watkins products are maybe 10-20 of 100,000 products carried in a store so if they figure they can use the shelf space for some other product or an in-house product they will. That is what happened with Sprouts a natural foods market in my area they opened with a whole shelf of Watkins spices and then eventually moved them out for their Sprouts branded products, much like Costco moves many popular national brand products to Kirksfield, their in house brand.

Watkins products as far as I know are in about 10% of Watkins stores in the USA and Walmart is always changing products around so even in the stores with contracts the products carried will be the best sellers. It was pretty cool that in the Walmart in Winona, MN where Watkins is headquartered the complete spice aisle was Watkins products except for a few McCormick food colorings.

Being that the products in stores have seen dramatic sales growth by direct sales consultants I don't see Watkins ending the retail initiative. Watkins products have been sold in retail stores throughout Watkins history in mom and pop stores and I believe that there were actually Watkins retail stores in major cities in the early 20th century.

Char,

I am currently focused in my business in training and mentoring my team members and my personal sales volume each month is made up of my personal use of products, promotional give-aways to customers and products that I give to my new consultants in their welcome package. As I get people that approach me to buy products I will be happy to sell to them and I do have a small customer base that I would love to grow.

@TRR

Sounds like you're really dedicated to building this business. Would it be safe to say that you are currently spending money to get established? Let me phrase it differently, and I do realize you get product in hand:

How much do you spend on all aspects of Watkins each month now? Training, product, gas, etc.

Also how much time per week do you spend on this?

I know this is necessary to start a business but I'm just curious as to the amount.

Also, How much did you spend on Watkins before deciding to make it a business?

P.S. I'm not going to try to stop you from doing Watkins. I am going to point out some things to watch out for IMO and maybe you can just be on the look out. I hope you think that's reasonable for this discussion.

Char,

I basically am just spending what I need in products for my home and family. I am a foodie, so I keep my spice rack full of my favorite Watkins spices for cooking.

I work out of my home so I really don't have travel expenses.

I pretty much do some work on my business 7 days a week from a few minutes to a full day, just depends on work to be done.

I completely understand getting a discount by signing up. Now some concerns:

Making a few bucks retail from a couple of customers isn't going to be worth much in exchange for your time. Certainly not a business, maybe just a couple of dollars bonus.

What if you do get one high spending customer? Well, they sign up and get the discount like you. Oh no, there goes that retail.

What keeps people from picking up vanilla at the store if they run out? Why the business lure of course.

I asked you where you buy your toilet paper? You said Costco which is a very reasonable and true life example. If I were an Amway IBO I'd say, how about buying it from yourself and getting a discount? See how the motivation might be lacking if you're not hoping to make it a business.

I'd have serious concerns about people picking up vanilla at Walmart while out shopping anyway.

Now, I think I saw where a Watkins IBO gets bonus points for selling a big product package to the new IBO.

Here's where I really wish you would read (if you haven't already) the Mary Kay website Pink Truth as this is exactly how they operate. There, you will read countless stories from former directors who admit to lying shamelessly to make a buck. The lie is telling new consultants about retailing products and money making/saving options to get them to sign up. The directors know the only way to make money is to sign up new consultants and sell them a huge initial inventory.

And round and around we go. MLM is MLM. Even if you have a decent product, Amway's toilet paper isn't too bad nor are some of MK products, it's the system of MLM that doesn't work the way they present it.

If you do markets, sell retail, and not recruit, that's a different matter. But you stated, that is not your focus. See the catch 22 when it's an MLM.

And remember, you are someone's sign-upeee who wants to make money off of you and your efforts.

As to the vanilla, most people who have used Watkins vanilla will buy it and use it because it's the best available. There are a lot of companies where the products just push the comp plan, Watkins is not one of them, people that use Watkins products will buy them even without a business advantage. My sister-in-law is a baker and her "secret" to her chocolate chip cookies is Watkins vanilla.

As to the Watkins business package as I answered more fully above Watkins used to require all new consultants to purchase a $150-200 kit to start that included products, catalogs, literature, day planner and satchel with a focus on home parties and door-to-door sales, but if you weren't going to do parties you were paying for about $60 in party invitations and samples or if you didn't need a day planner that was another $50 in extra cost, so they cut back to a $40 membership fee that was a catalog and training materials and allowed the new consultant the opportunity to buy the products and supplies for the way they were going to work the business. One of the add-on items is the Watkinize Your Home upgrade that contains $500 in products from all 4 product lines for $349 (30% off rather than standard 25% discount). This can serve as a sample kit for home parties and display tables, for resale with an extra 5% commission or for the new consultant to begin using Watkins products in their home to build their product knowledge.

As to the Mary Kay problem, the Watkins philosophy is to only purchase enough products for your personal use and resale needs. Rather than be applauded a Watkins consultant that would make a huge purchase of products would be contacted by their upline to find out why they were doing it. The only reason to make large purchases of products is for those people who do state or county fairs that need thousands of dollars in merchandise for resale at the fairs.

It's only $40 to join, but this sure does look enticing.

Watkinize Your Home Assortment
A variety of pre-selected Watkins products for every room in your house.* Earn additional money with the Watkinize Your Home (WYH) Bonus Payout: you can earn $100 cash (or more)!

To qualify for the WYH Bonus Payouts, you simply purchase the assortment for yourself & enroll in Watkins Loyalty Program.

The WYH Bonus Payout is not the only benefit! You also receive a FREE E-Associate online web package and maintenance fee for the first three months ($124.80 value!). Check mine out here!
·** *$349 WYH package
·** *FREE Watkins E-Associate Website ($64.95 Value)
·** *Three months FREE web maintenance* ($59.85 Value)
·** *WYH Bonus Payout** $100—$175
·** *Watkinize Your Home product assortment


And even more enticing:

·** *Total Assortment Value: $625
*Watkins will maintain your website for a monthly fee of $19.95 after your first three free months.
**Requires Associate to purchase the Watkinize Your Home assortment and join Watkins Loyalty Program.

Originally Posted by therockroad

As to the Mary Kay problem, the Watkins philosophy is to only purchase enough products for your personal use and resale needs. Rather than be applauded a Watkins consultant that would make a huge purchase of products would be contacted by their upline to find out why they were doing it. The only reason to make large purchases of products is for those people who do state or county fairs that need thousands of dollars in merchandise for resale at the fairs.

Do you really think MK applauds big purchases? Or do you think purchases are made because they are told the products are helpful to run a business, have samples for clients, available inventory to sell, and personal use. Sound familiar?

RR said,
"One of the add-on items is the Watkinize Your Home upgrade that contains $500 in products from all 4 product lines for $349 (30% off rather than standard 25% discount). This can serve as a sample kit for home parties and display tables, for resale with an extra 5% commission or for the new consultant to begin using Watkins products in their home to build their product knowledge."

And what's this. More spending?


To qualify for the WYH Bonus Payouts, you simply purchase the assortment for yourself & enroll in Watkins Loyalty Program.

Loyalty*Program

The Watkins Loyalty Program is designed to support Consultant business-building efforts. Consistent, monthly use of Watkins products in your home is a cornerstone of success in your business. This program will reward your consistent use, personal commitment and loyalty to Watkins products.

Here’s how the Loyalty Program works:

Watkins*computers will automatically check your Central Points three full days before the end of each month. For example, if the month has 31 days, we’ll check your volume at the end of the 29th day. If you have fewer than 100 Central Points, Watkins automatically mail you a Watkins Gift Certificate that will boost you to 100 Central Points. For example, if you had 72 Points, we’d send a Gift Certificate that counts as 28 Points. For Consultants who have reached Manager level, the certificate will boost you to 200 Central Points. You can then redeem the certificate on any future order. Watkins We’ll charge the payment method you provided for the certificate (you get the 25% Consultant discount, and there’s no shipping or sales tax added). You’ll receive a notification via email when we generate a Gift Certificate. If you already have 100 Central Points (200 Central Points for Managers) when the computers check your volume, no certificate will be issued and you will not be charged. Join us as a consultant and use the Loyalty Program every month.

And more incentive to order products. But they're not like MK.


"Advantage order is done

2/8/2014
My Advantage order is done for the month, 30% savings and free shipping. Join me in saving dollars when you order your Watkins.

Here is a little bit how the Advantage Program*or "Free Shipping" works.

The deadline is the 8th of the month to place or modify your order on the Advantage Program as a Watkins Consultant. It's the optional program that lets you order from 100 Points to 300 Points (about $100 to $300 worth) of products at a bigger-than-usual discount and with Free Shipping."


^^^^Found this on Internet but I don't want to give the consultant a plug here by posting link.