Thread: Why Not Start Your Own MLM?

Originally Posted by Len Clements

And then, after already having my entire case so completely destroyed, ribshaw quoted where I said I had only touted my Mensa membership in "one" place, that being the "Association Memberships" section of my resume, which can be found under the "About Len" menu option on my website (in response to Edgington's claim that I "constantly brag" about it). But then… ribshaw linked to my Facebook page. With great trepidation (laid-back, that means feeling fear and agitation), I clicked on it to find, to my horror, that my Mensa membership was, in fact, mentioned under the "About" menu option of my personal Facebook page – not "About Len", just "About" – and the title of the page it linked to was "About Len Clements".

Len before you showed up other than seeing your name in passing I had no idea who you where. Was just being silly with my "2", gave me cheap laugh.

What I find problematic is why someone in MENSA with an IQ of 152 would be in MLM at all.

The MLM model itself does not work as a business for 99% of the participants because of the math. A smart guy should know the masses can't "duplicate" their way to success because there is not enough demand for overpriced products or people in the world to complete the downlines. Even trading FX is well ahead of MLM in terms of the probability of success.

So there's that.

Then there is the science or should I say pseudo science involved with pitching products of questionable merit. That someone with a robust IQ of 152 would overlook this is troubling.



I found these links, different YOLI I'm sure. Nevertheless the "supplement" market as a whole has some mega quality control issues.

insanitary conditions whereby they may have become contaminated with filth, or whereby they may have been rendered injurious to health

Yoli, Inc. dba Mi Costenita 3/12/13

Science Blog -- FDA ANNOUNCES A RECALL BY YOLI, INC. OF MINI JELLY SNACK CUPS



The MLM/Endless Recruiting Pyramid Scam industry displays all sorts of trappings of wealth and success. None of this squares up with the reality of the losses the 99% enjoy year in and year out. The companies do it, or turn a blind eye when the reps do it. Same with the health claims. Any success that you have had related to your IQ will not rub off enough on anyone in your downline enough to compensate for the bad math that is MLM. More than intelligence that I see in people who make it in MLM is being a able to create a "Cult of Personality" where people almost blindly follow them for a while. For that person to maintain their status, the downline must be kept in a spell of hope.

I have looked for an MLM model that makes sense numbers wise. Where real customers use a fairly priced product with no intention of becoming IBO. Keller Williams may fit that bill, although I don't know much about the agent retention side. A few true party companies, maybe if they qualify their salespeople. Other than that, zip.


So many problems with MLM as an opportunity, I would say rather than deal with the "trolls" clean up the industry if you care so much. Certainly you will counter that you only promote "legitimate" opportunities, and will have to suffer some ribbing for such foolishness. Then again, maybe you need to walk away and realize MLM is too much of a mess to fix.

You'd think someone who is an "expert" about MLM and carries such "impressive" credentials would be making money by building an MLM empire then sitting back on his duff an collecting "residual income" rather than trying to pimp his advice and training on MLM hopefuls.

Originally Posted by Luzer

You'd think someone who is an "expert" about MLM and carries such "impressive" credentials would be making money by building an MLM empire then sitting back on his duff an collecting "residual income" rather than trying to pimp his advice and training on MLM hopefuls.

Them what can - does

Them what can't - teaches

Originally Posted by littleroundman

Them what can - does

Them what can't - teaches

Classic, I've heard MLMer's make this claim before. Odd how they don't view the MLM leaders as those who "teach".

I'd love to read the bio of an MLM "expert leader" then see if it correlates with what they say/teach.

I can see it now,

"Twenty five years of MLM experience, Reached Diamond in 10 different companies, Will teach you how to retire rich on residual in 2-5 years"

Think about it folks.

Originally Posted by Char

I'd love to read the bio of an MLM "expert leader" then see if it correlates with what they say/teach.

I can see it now,

"Twenty five years of MLM experience, Reached Diamond in 10 different companies, Will teach you how to retire rich on residual in 2-5 years"

Think about it folks.

MarketWave Inc. About Len Clements

Leonard Wayne Clements
1572 Rock Island Lane
Las Vegas, NV 89110
(702) 914-1771 home/office
(702) 914-1770 fax
MarketWave@Cox.net

Network Marketing distributor.
1979 to 1980: Nature Slim
1989 to 1990: Charles J. Givens Organization
1991 to 1992: Nu Skin Internaitonal
1992 to 1993: Outback Secrets (Top Ten earner)
1994 to 1995: Beverly Hills International (Top Ten earner)
1995 to 2003: Longevity Network, LLC (#1 earner every year except '95 & '97)
2008 to 2009: Usana Health Sciences
2009 to Present: Yoli, LLC

Member - Mensa Society (155 IQ)
Board Member - Assoc. of Nertwork Marketing Professionals (ANMP)
[Chairman - Education & Training Committee]
Member - Direct Selling Woman's Alliance (DSWA)
Board Member (2004-08) - Multilevel Marketing International Assoc. (MLMIA)
Member - National Association for the Self Employed (NASE)
Member - Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI)
Member - James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF)

How are those impressive credentials?

One must be wondering why he's not retired by now from Nature Slim.

One also must be wondering why a top ten earner, or #1 for that matter, would choose to give up that residual retirement.

I count 35 years, 7 lots of 2-5 years to retire, yet he is pimping Yoli currently? Gee, maybe he's not all that successful in MLM. Or is he?

Perhaps we need clarification of what a "successful" network marketer is!!!

To a network marketer, a successful network marketer is when they say they are. To the MLM company it is when you are called up on the stage at their annual sales convention receiving an award, being a top earner, or reaching an affiliate award level.

Originally Posted by Char

One must be wondering why he's not retired by now from Nature Slim.

One also must be wondering why a top ten earner, or #1 for that matter, would choose to give up that residual retirement.

I count 35 years, 7 lots of 2-5 years to retire, yet he is pimping Yoli currently? Gee, maybe he's not all that successful in MLM. Or is he?

Perhaps we need clarification of what a "successful" network marketer is!!!

A common saying in MLM is "fake it till you make it". It's ironic that MLMer's often talk about residual income and how they can live on easy street if you "build it right". But you seemingly never see any MLMer's actually retire from MLM, sit on their duffs and collect that magical residual income. The attrition in MLM practically requires that you constantly be churning new prospects and recruits so you can never truly retire from MLM, unless you want the business to eventually fall apart and stop producing income. We could debate that MLM is an easy job for those at the top, but, still, they need to be someone at a particular time, which is part of the pitch in MLM - do what you want, when you want. (Not true)

1989 to 1990: Charles J. Givens Organization

Now there's one to boast about!

Over his career, Givens was the target of dozens of lawsuits and two court cases for defrauding customers, one in California and one in Florida. The California fraud case found that he had misled his customers by claiming that he had made his money using his financial strategies, rather than by selling his financial strategies, and he was ordered to refund $14.1 million to his customers. Givens settled the Florida fraud case. Givens was also sued for advocating dropping insurance to save money by a woman whose husband was killed by an uninsured driver. Givens settled the insurance suit in 1993.

Maybe that's where Lenny developed his penchant for being involved in legal things - seeing his mentor being in court for fraud all the time.

I wonder what he means by Board Member - Assoc. of Nertwork Marketing Professionals (ANMP)
Does it mean Association of Nerd marketers?

Originally Posted by path2prosperity

I wonder what he means by Board Member - Assoc. of Nertwork Marketing Professionals (ANMP)
Does it mean Association of Nerd marketers?

Spelling isn't his forte - but you have to give him credit - he did manage to get IQ right.

As for "Nertwork", he gets all pissy when you point out his grammatical and spelling mistakes.

As in...

Doc Brian dropped a bomb shell on me. He pointed out that among the well over 1,000 words I typed, in one of those words I had… (if you're faint of heart, you may want to skip the rest of this sentence)… I had left out not one, but two letters, and I even went so far as to substitute one of those letters, an "h", with an "s"!

Originally Posted by Doc Bunkum

Spelling isn't his forte - but you have to give him credit - he did manage to get IQ right.

As for "Nertwork", he gets all pissy when you point out his grammatical and spelling mistakes.

As in...

Uhhh, it's called "professionalism"

Like, if you can't get the name of your supposedly professional association correct, just how professional are you ??

If you can't be professional, at least act like you are

Originally Posted by littleroundman

If you can't be professional, at least act like you are

He does and he'll happy to tell you that in no less than 1,000 words.

Originally Posted by Char

One must be wondering why he's not retired by now from Nature Slim.

One also must be wondering why a top ten earner, or #1 for that matter, would choose to give up that residual retirement.

I count 35 years, 7 lots of 2-5 years to retire, yet he is pimping Yoli currently? Gee, maybe he's not all that successful in MLM. Or is he?

Perhaps we need clarification of what a "successful" network marketer is!!!

Originally Posted by Luzer

A common saying in MLM is "fake it till you make it". It's ironic that MLMer's often talk about residual income and how they can live on easy street if you "build it right". But you seemingly never see any MLMer's actually retire from MLM, sit on their duffs and collect that magical residual income. The attrition in MLM practically requires that you constantly be churning new prospects and recruits so you can never truly retire from MLM, unless you want the business to eventually fall apart and stop producing income. We could debate that MLM is an easy job for those at the top, but, still, they need to be someone at a particular time, which is part of the pitch in MLM - do what you want, when you want. (Not true)

This I thought was one of the better threads on MLM since it had discussion with Rockroad who seemed fairly committed to making it in MLM.
http://www.realscam.com/f9/watkins-scam-not-117/ Seems like so much to be up against with so little chance of returning a profit.

As many times as we have looked at various MLMs I can't ever seem to come up with the advantage from a money or freedom of time perspective. Sure NWM can hold out a few leaders and make claims of massive income, but a few people make big money playing basketball or pretending to be superheroes. There will always be some skill and/or luck that can't be replicated no matter how hard people work or what car picture they paste on their fridge. Surely the 99% who "fail" in MLM can't all be to blame for not listening to their uplines.

The 2-5 year timeline to be living on a passive income comes across like an Urban MLMegend. Who are these people? With the DSA claiming 15,000,000 in some capacity of MLM it should not be hard to find and publicly document 150,000ish that did it in five years or less and never lifted another finger.

If Len was making passive income from his previous ventures, why walk away? Personally, I have walked away from situations, none of them were "passive". If I could be pissed, not lift a finger, and still collect a check, I would have found some other means to express my emotions.

To borrow a phrase from a certain big toothed guru "success leaves clues", those clues in MLM point to profiting by selling hope to people further down the pyramid. If the real money was in building the organization "leaders" would be giving their wisdom away to expand and maintain their downlines. Cashing checks on vacation somewhere.

Originally Posted by ribshaw

Sure NWM can hold out a few leaders and make claims of massive income.........

One of the many reasons I detest MLM!!!

But these leaders can only become leaders by lying, exaggerating, embellishing, half-truthing, faking, looking like sleaze balls, exploiting their friends and families, isolating, and stealing.

It is the ONLY way to convince people to be in your downline and thus, be successful in MLM.

The 99% failure rate is made up of folks who are terrible LIARS trying to sell a crappy system that can't mathematically work. Many don't even know they are lying because they have been brainwashed by the con man (leader).

Being a leader in MLM is hardly ANYTHING to be proud of......and being a founder is even worse. Conversely, failing at MLM is the best thing that could ever happen to someone and their character.

Originally Posted by Char

One of the many reasons I detest MLM!!!

But these leaders can only become leaders by lying, exaggerating, embellishing, half-truthing, faking, looking like sleaze balls, exploiting their friends and families, isolating, and stealing.

It is the ONLY way to convince people to be in your downline and thus, be successful in MLM.

The 99% failure rate is made up of folks who are terrible LIARS trying to sell a crappy system that can't mathematically work. Many don't even know they are lying because they have been brainwashed by the con man (leader).

Being a leader in MLM is hardly ANYTHING to be proud of......and being a founder is even worse. Conversely, failing at MLM is the best thing that could ever happen to someone and their character.

I would say most MLM leaders are crooked and use their rank to exploit prospects and new recruits. And I'm sure they know it but they internalize it or justify it by thinking if I could do it then so can they.

MLM defenders complain that the 99% failure rate is made up but various lawsuits and other court ordered documents show just that. A few companies that released income disclosures also show that very few reach levels where the compensation is enough to make a living.

I'm not sure what to make out of people who constantly defend MLM as a viable business. Are they deluded by the pie in the sky expectations of MLM or are they devious crooks like MLM leaders or like Kiyosaki who profits by selling false hopes and dreams in some "system" designed to make you money? Which one is Len Clements?

"fake it till you make it" aka lying, aka the reason why MLMs are deceptive and should be illegal, on top of being a pyramid scheme.

yet people seem to be okay with this?

Originally Posted by Luzer

I'm not sure what to make out of people who constantly defend MLM as a viable business.

I wonder if there is a certain personality type that becomes enamored with MLM/Endless recruiting and sticks with it despite the financial loss. Or is there certain personality like a Kiyosaki that people gravitate toward checkbooks in hand? Both have their lines down pat, we know the arguments for MLM from hearing them verbatim and Kiyosaki has nothing new in 20 books.

Originally Posted by ribshaw

I wonder if there is a certain personality type that becomes enamored with MLM/Endless recruiting and sticks with it despite the financial loss. Or is there certain personality like a Kiyosaki that people gravitate toward checkbooks in hand? Both have their lines down pat, we know the arguments for MLM from hearing them verbatim and Kiyosaki has nothing new in 20 books.

I believe Len Clements is like Kiyosaki. He's making his money selling his theories to MLM companies and MLMer's. But given that I don't know of any MLM where even 10% of recruits succeed and actually make some money, I don't know how much of any of his advice is even worth the paper it's written on. If there was a secret to MLM that was unlocked and allowed the masses to succeed, it would be no secret and Mr. Clements could name his price for said secrets. Instead, we see the same old vast majority of MLMer's losing money.

Seems that those who succeed are exceptional at deceiving large numbers of people into thinking MLM is a good idea in spite of the overwhelming evidence that it's not.

Originally Posted by Luzer

Seems that those who succeed are exceptional at deceiving large numbers of people into thinking MLM is a good idea in spite of the overwhelming evidence that it's not.

Personally I love talking to people about business or money related things. At the same time motivational claptrap is very off-putting after about two minutes which seems to be about all these folks offer. If I was in a room with Simon or Robert, without question I would rather have the janitor tell me some stories.

I don't know much about Clements mannerisms but let me ask if you or anyone else finds a Kiyosaki or http://www.realscam.com/f16/simon-stepsys-3342/ who recruits a of people into scams appealing as people? Leaving out the fact they we know they are charlatans, if you met them in a bar would you find them engaging? Or engaging enough to create a cult following?

Originally Posted by ribshaw

Personally I love talking to people about business or money related things. At the same time motivational claptrap is very off-putting after about two minutes which seems to be about all these folks offer. If I was in a room with Simon or Robert, without question I would rather have the janitor tell me some stories.

I don't know much about Clements mannerisms but let me ask if you or anyone else finds a Kiyosaki or http://www.realscam.com/f16/simon-stepsys-3342/ who recruits a of people into scams appealing as people? Leaving out the fact they we know they are charlatans, if you met them in a bar would you find them engaging? Or engaging enough to create a cult following?

I don't know much about Len, but Kiyosaki etal are charlatans who sell dreams and false hopes to people who likely can't afford them. They soak many people for a few hundred or a few thousand and then they skip town and move onto the next. What puzzles me is with the wealth of information available on the internet and other resources, how do people keep falling for these scams?

If met one of them in a bar, I'd probably play along and engage them for a while just to see how they think and react.